Hi Ron Edwards, please ban me
Frank Tarcikowski:
On feeling marginalized, that's something most people went through when they arrive at the Forge and seriously tried to contribute something. I sure did. I even posted about it to the Forge Birthday Forum five years ago: Big Forge, Small Me. It's kind of an aside, but my best advice to people new to the Forge would be to forget about First Thoughts and go to Actual Play.
I liked how Actual Play used to be the forum at the top. I'm not a big fan of First Thoughts and I understand it's not quite working as intended. So, Ron, if you (undestandably) don't have the time to monitor it, I guess it's going to keep not quite working as intended, despite everyone's best intentions. Just saying.
- Frank
Ar Kayon:
When does any forum work as intended?
First Thoughts is a great place for continuous feedback on your designs. However, I believe the root problem stems from inherently discourteous language, whether or not the member is aware he is speaking in such a tone. New members can be quite sensitive to this. For example, when the established member makes a critique of the new member's designs, he may speak matter-of-factly ('your design does not", "your design is...") where it is nearly impossible to do so; design is predominantly a matter of taste. This language can convey the message that the OP is wrong, which can inflame a discussion.
Therefore, the person conducting the critique has the responsibility to be objective, more so than the OP. To illustrate, instead of using language such as "this is...", it is better to say, "in my opinion, this is...". This minute difference conveys the message that the critique comes from an individual viewpoint, which may or may not be accurate.
Ron Edwards:
We've been over this and over this. I've heard it all.
The problem is that in the last three years, I have simply had zero time to devote to attending to comportment in First Thoughts, or even to make it as clear as possible to people arriving at the Forge just what the place is. Yeah, it hasn't been great in just the ways you describe. One of the biggest problems is that people can fall into a trap of fake-ass courtesy or fake-ass clarity, even when their intentions are excellent. Yeah, their posts can often be fairly perceived as pompous, condescending, and lacking in the sort of charity that anyone should get in the opening phases of conversation. But it hasn't been moderated by me enough to stop it.
Consider this as well, please. It's equally true that many newcomers are addled and scarred and entrained by the abominable stupidity that characterizes discussions and pretends to be courteous nearly everywhere else on the internet. To such a person, you could say "Let me see, your game is about dwarves," and spark an aggrieved rant that begins with "Sirrah" and ends with "Go ahead and ban me." Less extremely, I am fascinated by the frequency that people who like to be taken seriously as power-minds in a social scene and take pride in being the expert gamer, get pissed off or annoyed at being condescended to or find hidden meanings that demand defensive rebuttal ... and then, a while later, post something like, "Wait a minute, if I simply take what you're posting at face value, that makes a lot of sense!" These posters are extremely high-maintenance on the rest of us until they figure it out.
All of which is now moot. The newcomer's arrival at the Forge during the winter stage (or phase or whatever the fuck it is) is going to be different. And I intend to moderate with fire, sword, and mandrake root, as well as lead by example in terms of courteous, genuine, and obvious engagement, like I used to.
Best, Ron
Ar Kayon:
Don't take this as bitching, as I do just fine handling all sorts of responses. I am merely making an observation for others' sake. And as forums go, this is the second-best in terms of maintaining discussion. The very best was a Taoism forum I used to take part of. Absolutely zero moderation, but we were the sorts of such a peculiar mindset that evading the slings and arrows of uncontrolled discussion was particularly easy (if we don't take ourselves seriously, it logically follows that neither do we our interactions). If we didn't wanna get peed on, we'd just move out tha way.
Now, your condensation of the development phases makes a great deal of sense. The abolition of initial musings sounds good too, as I've been reading a lot of things here that I know are never intended to be developed, but are rather thought experiments that get caught up in abstract theory. My only concern is what tools will be at the disposal of members' projects during the earliest stages.
Ron Edwards:
Thank you for your points. Let's take this discussion into the Winter thread, as this thread has lurched into unnecessary unlife enough times already.
I also ask that you not post for others' sake. Whoever they are, they are free to speak for themselves.
Best, Ron
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