Help With Hero's Banner
Lorthyne:
Hello all!
I'm new to The Forge, although I've been playing and loving RPG's and indie RPGs for several years now.
I've recently acquired a copy of Tim Kopang's excellent Hero's Banner (http://tckroleplaying.com/herosbanner/), and have run one game and played in another that has taken us two full sessions to get about halfway through. We're all loving the game (including two players who are having their first-ever experience roleplaying with this game), but we've had a few kinks in the game that we're trying to work out. I'm wondering if anyone with more experience with Hero's Banner than myself could lend some advice.
I truly LOVE how Hero's Banner is set up to great these incredible, conflicted characters and play them to their fullest in a single session. I'm used to creating characters, having several sessions within a campaign to figure out who they rally are and what they're trying to accomplish, and then allowing those special, magical moments of role-play to be brought out. Hero's Banner is one of the few games I've played that has granted me a sense of completeness and attachment to my characters from the opening scene.
However, we've found that some of the coolest role-playing moments in the game don't actually lead to conflicts, which means passion scores don't increase, and the results of the scene aren't reflected mechanically at all. For example, in a recent game, my character Dorin had a Hero Influence inspired by a legendary dragon-slayer, and wanted to achieve similar fame and glory through slaying a mythical monster. His Conscience influence involved marrying a particular woman, Irina. Another player's character (I forget the character name) was the brother of Irina, and had a Blood influence goal of arranging a good marriage for his sister (i.e., someone safer than thrill-seeking, risker-taking Dorin). We had decided that prior to our play session, a brother of Irina and the other PC had been a friend of Dorin's, and had been killed in an unsuccessful attempt to slay a monstrous bird while Dorin escaped with his life. We had an incredible scene in which the issues between Dorin and the other PC were finally confronted, with the other PC railing on Dorin for the death of the brother and the taking of Irina's virginity (which had happened during play) , and Dorin expressing his own guilt and sorrow for these events while still feeling somewhat justified in that both Irina and the dead brother were willing participants in their respective events. The narrative power of the scene was awesome, but we never really got to a point where we could call for a conflict. Did we miss something, or is that just part of how the system works?
Ideas and suggestions would be much appreciated. I'm also wondering if anyone knows of where I could get an audio recording of an actual play session of Hero's Banner. I tend to learn how specific games and systems ebb and flow best when I can experience it firsthand, and actual play recordings are a way of accomplishing that for those who don't know anyone else who has played the game before.
Thanks!
Chris_Chinn:
Hi Lorthyne,
Sometimes you have a scene without a conflict - this happens in other games, like Primetime Adventures. One thing that you can do, is that those kinds of scenes usually set up for later conflicts- the players have expressed where they stand, and now you can start laying out what that means for them and challenging it.
Chris
Tim C Koppang:
Lorthyne,
First of all, welcome to the Forge, and thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate that.
To get to the heart of your question, let me first start by saying that all scenes do not need to end with an actual conflict. If everyone is roleplaying their characters, and you just don't see anything that looks like a conflict, that's ok. I suggest simply ending the scene, and moving on. As Chris suggests, powerful scenes without a mechanical conflict can often lead to powerful conflicts later on in the game. No need to force a conflict into every scene.
Now, that said, Hero's Banner can be a pretty intense experience, and the mechanics do encourage lots of conflict -- and the desire for lots of Passion checks. In all honesty, if you're the GM, you probably should be shooting for a conflict in every scene. If it just doesn't happen, fine. But when you are framing the scene, I suggest looking over the characters that are going to be involved, and really hitting their Influences and Connections hard. It sounds like you're doing all that. The emotional background of the scene you described with Dorin, Irina, and the other PC is sky-high! So I'm wondering about a couple things:
1. What did Dorin and the other PC hope to get out of the confrontation? Were they just exchanging heated words? Or was there something else at stake? Was one character attempting to manipulate or influence the other? Was Dorin trying to win the brother's approval, to remove at least one roadblock on the way to marrying Irina? All of this could lead to a potential conflict. As the GM, you might think about pushing these issues harder, either through your NPC, Irina, or through direct suggestion to the players.
2. What was Irina doing during this blow-up? Obviously, her relationship with both characters is complicated and full of dramatic potential. Unless she's totally passive, I think she could be a powerful catalyst.
Otherwise, it sounds as if the scene was more about resolving some of the hard feelings between the two PCs more than it was about brewing up additional conflict. In Hero's Banner, you have to remember that Passion is all about what happens when a character is faced with failure and an overwhelming desire to stand up and fight. Everything should be hard fought and capital I, Important. If a character is just resolving his issues, well, then everything is going his way. Not much to get passionate (in Hero's Banner terms) about there.
I hope this helps, and I'd really like to hear more about your game!
- Tim
P.S. As far as I know, there are no recorded HB games. Anyone out there want to prove me wrong?
Lorthyne:
Thanks for your input, Tim (can I call you Tim?)
We actually completed our game of Hero's Banner this last weekend, although it took three separate sessions to do so (mostly because all of us talk a lot and tend to get distracted), and it was a very satisfying conclusion. Ioan was the name of the other PC (Irina's brother), just to set that straight. I'll give you a rundown of the whole game, because you mentioned you were interested.
Our first round of Hero's Banner was set primarily in the southern kingdom of Prodan (sp?), and one the player characters by the name of Jeroboam ended up choosing his Conscience influence to create religious peace, and in his narration he became a sort of prophet figure, creating a religious movement very similar to the Protestant Reformation in the southern, western, and eastern kingdoms, eventually to be martyred in his preaching in the northern kingdom of Uran. We decided to set the next game in Uran, coinciding with Jeroboam's arrival there. My character, Dorin, was the second son of the influential Renado family in Uran, with a Hero influence of finding glory in battle through slaying a mythical creature, a Blood influence of succeeding his father and elder brother Gaius as the head of house in order to protect his brother Gaius from their father's physical and emotional abuses, and a Conscience Influence of marrying the woman of his dreams, Irina.. Another PC, Ioan, was Irina's brother, and was a follower of The Way, Jeroboam's reformation of the Church of the Cross. Ioan desired to find transcendent peace through his religious worship in following his hero Jeroboam, arrange a safe, secure marriage for his sister Irina (which didn't include Dorin as an option, at least to begin with), and as a Conscience influence to find "real," more tangible peace in terms of political stability. Ravian was the adopted son of a powerful but sterile noble in Uran, and chose his father as his Hero influence, wanting to take over the family legacy. Ravian's Blood influence came from his birth family, the Whitevines, who was a powerful noble family in the southern kingdom until the shift in powers begun by Jeroboam led to their extinction. Ravian desired to reclaim the honor of his birth family by killing Jeroboam. Ravian's conscience influence is too complex to explain fully here, but it involved personal redemption and acquisition of power through "old magic" and blood oaths with the "old gods". The final PC, Belainia Blackheart, was the black sheep of a family of ruthless political assassins. She desired to follow her father's philanthropic influence and donate all of her family's possessions to the poor(Hero), to follow her family's dream of overthrowing the king (Blood), and to avenge her father's murder by killing her mother and three brothers(Conscience).
Other connections we forged between the PC's included that the brother of Irina and Ioan went with Dorin on a beast-slaying quest and did not return, so Ioan and Dorin started out on bad footing. Ravian began pursuing Irina as a love interest as well, leading to an interesting love triangle between two PC's and an NPC, and we also worked in a developing romance between Bellaina and Dorin's brother Gaius.
The game opened with Dorin attempting to protect his older brother Gaius from being physically beaten by their father. He failed rather miserably, which resulted in both of them receiving the beating. Ravian and Ioan had a very public debate about the merits and shortcomings of The Way during the feast that welcomed Jeroboam into the city, which led to Irina being falsely informed by her brother Ioan that Dorin had been beaten and most likely killed. Irina rushed to Dorin's home (actually having been taken there by none other than Ravian), and not finding him there, found Dorin at his personal training ground, venting his frustration at his inability to protect his brother. There, the emotionally and physically battered couple sought comfort in each other, culminating in a sexual encounter that both strengthened and compromised their relationship, all while Ravian looked on. Meanwhile, Bellaina battled against her mother's manipulations and befriended a kitchen servant whom she discovered to have been his father's mistress. The servant was being forced to spy on Bellaina by Bellaina' mother, the leverage being that Bellaina's mother had possession of the child of the servant and Bellaina's father, threatening to take the child's life. Ravian is approached by dark forces promising him power to kill Jeroboam if he brings them the dead body of one of Jeroboam's followers. Ravian refuses to commit either way.
Irina approaches her brother Ioan about her sexual compromise with Dorin, and is spurned by her angry brother for the act. Dorin and Ioan the have their previously-mentioned encounter in the woods, which began with Ioan accusing Dorin of ruining her family (specifically, Irina), and ended with Dorin apologizing for the death of Ioan's brother. Rather than reconciling, both individuals came away more incensed with the other. Eventually, the religious tension erupts in the city of Uran when Jeroboam's parade to celebrate the introduction of the peaceful new order known as The Way into Uran ironically devolves into mob violence between the two religious groups, with Ioan being an instigator, having drawn a sword in an attempt to protect Jeroboam's life, compromising the very belief system he was defending with the act. As the fighting erupts in front of the main cathedral for the Old Church, inside the cathedral Bellaina's benevolent uncle (and connection to her Blood influence) encourages her to find some way to stop the conflict, which counsel she chooses to ignore. Simultaneously in the cathedral, Gaius, seeking for acceptance, is contemplating following his father's orders to join the priesthood of the Church, while Dorin attempts to persuade him play a part in their father's machinations. Having failed to do so (i.e., initial failure and a decision not to push), Dorin sees that Gaius himself has become an obstacle in his own protection, and Dorin turns to political maneuverings to displace his father and brother, trying to remove his brother from the line of succession (without bloodshed, of course) against his will. Irina makes an appearance in the mob riots, showing up purely out of spite towards her brother, and is heavily wounded in the fighting. Dorin and Ravian actually work together to save Irina's life, but Ravian suffers a breakdown in the process, going into a bloody rage and cutting down people in order to carve a path for Dorin to pull her out on horseback. Bellaina, in turn, helps to sneak Gaius safely out of the cathedral and past the rioting.
Irina has sustained heavy injuries and has developed an infection. Dorin leaves, frustrated with his inability to help both the woman he loves and his elder brother. Dorin eventually returns home, taking out this frustration on his father, beating him fonearly to death and assuming a more dominant role in the family. While Ioan sits at his sister's bedside, he has an encounter with a connection of his named Owana in which she shifts from being his religious advisor (connection for Hero Influence) to potential lover (connection for Conscience influence). Ravian obtains magical power to save Irina's life but by sheer force of will is able to weasel out of the prerequisite of killing Jeroboam first, promising to do so later. Jeroboam has made an enemy of the king, and Dorin is approached by the king's emissary, asked to move against Ioan's house, who are the strongest supporters of Jeroboam. In a moment of conflict and opportunity, Bellaina murders her mother, bringing her that much closer to her goal. Ravian heals Irina using the old magic, and after he steps out to inform the family, Dorin makes his move, having chosen to to abduct Irina both for her own safety and to use her as leverage against her own house, a plan that Irina herself agrees to. They are confronted by Ravian during their escape, who chooses to side with them in their plan to protect Irina. During this exchange, Ravian threatens to kill Dorin if anything happens to Irina, and Dorin counters with a promise to give up his own life to Ravian if such a thing happens.
Jeroboam is arrested by the king for causing civil unrest. Soon after, Dorin arranges a meeting with the leaders of his family, attempting to persuade them to take a side against Ioan's house in the civil war that is about to erupt, while his father wants to retain the long alliance they have held. During the meeting, Dorin is able to persuade the rest of the house to follow his plan and that his father is unstable and tyrannical, which results in the removal of Dorin's father from house leadership and the (sadly) call of Gaius as the oldest son to assume the role and lead the charge. Still hopeful that the terrified Gaius can be removed, Dorin proceeds with his plan, determined to keep him alive in the coming conflict. Ioan helps Jeroboam to escape his confinement.
The war between the nobles houses and the Church against the common populace, Ioan's house, and the Way begins. Jeroboam, horrified with the conflict, rushes to the city wall to preach peace to both sides, which is exactly how his character was narrated as dying in our previous game. Irina is also spotted near Jeroboam on the wall as Ravian notices the large siege weapon pointed towards him. All of our final conflicts came to a head at this point. Ravian had the choice of firing the weapon and killing both Jeroboam and Irina or in finding his own redemption in saving Irina's life (the siege weapon was going to be fired anyway). Ioan rushed up on the wall, and was faced with choosing to save Owana, Jeroboam, or Irina. Dorin's brother Gaius was seized in the conflict by Bellaina's brothers, and Dorin had to choose between saving Irina on the wall or Gaius on the ground. Bellaina had to choose between saving Gaius's life and thus following her father's dream or helping to overthrow the king and establish her family in a more powerful position. In the end, Jeroboam was killed (he had to die regardless, as that had been previously established), Ravian choose to seek his own redemption by saving Irina, Bellaina went after her brothers and saved Gaius, and Ioan jumped in front of the projectiles, protecting both Ravian and Ioan and securing a good marriage for his sister, eventually crawling back to his lover's arms, embracing them while he died.
In the end narration, Dorin found himself unable to protect either Irina or Gaius, and as such voluntarily gives up his claim on both Irina and the house leadership. In an attempt at suicide, he pursues again the monstrous bird that killed Ioan and Irina's brother and kills it, obtaining the glory of monster-slaying for himself in a most bittersweet fashion. He becomes renowned as the greatest beast-hunter of all time, as he wanders the land seeking out these creatures and his own death, only to slay each one and die miserable of old age. Ravian marries Irina, raising the child of Dorin and Irina as his own and eventually overthrowing the king and taking his place. As king, Ravian erects statues to commemorate Dorin, Ioan, and Jeroboam, at which point he ultimately betrays his magical oath, the consequences of which kill him. Gaius and Bellaina are married, and Gaius is able to support the weight of leadership until Bellaina, his strength, dies in childbirth. House Renado eventually crumbles under Gaius's weak leadership, and Gaius is executed for treason.
Lorthyne:
Phew, wall of text. Now I can reply to you questions, Tim.
1 - In that confrontation, I think Dorin was looking to finally apologize for the hurt he had caused Ioan and his family, while Ioan wanted to ream Dorin for doing just that. Dorin wanted a bit of reconciliation, while Ioan wanted further dissociation. From your description, it seems like we could have made a conflict out of whether or not Dorin is able to obtain some level of forgiveness from Ioan.
2 - Irina wasn't present during the confrontation, but I think she definitely sided with Dorin on this one
The other problem we encountered was that it was difficult to find opportunities for Ioan to make dice rolls and have a shot at increasing passion. Most of his conflicts were very internal (transcendent peace vs temporal peace), and we didn't like the idea of Ioan rolling a conflict to see whether he could convince himself one way of the other, as that idea takes away the choice of the player. Those choices, to me, at least, are the whole point of playing Hero's Banner in the first place.
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