Help With Hero's Banner
Tim C Koppang:
Lorthyne,
Wow! Now I wish I had a recording of your session. It sounds like you all really went at the game with gusto, and I love it. I especially like, among other things, how you made use of the character, Jeroboam, from episode to episode. Even though your group knew how Jeroboam would end up, you still included him as in important NPC in the second story (and continued to develop him).
Were you GMing? Running four characters, from personal experience, can be quite exhausting. Hero’s Banner puts a lot of weight on the GM’s shoulders. While setting scenes and playing NPCs doesn’t seem like it should be a lot of work, keeping track of an ever more intricate plot almost always ends up tiring me out. For obvious reasons, keeping track of less PCs takes some of the load off. Frequent breaks can also come in handy. Did you manage all right?
Your final scenes make the whole game sound like a grand blood opera. Everyone was trying to decide who to sacrifice themselves for. Obviously, most of the characters survived the battle, but there wasn’t a happy ending in sight. For some reason, I particularly like the lone beast hunter ending. How tragic. Still, I could see how future generations might really end up worshipping Dorin.
The way in which you were able to integrate a religious conflict in the game also sounds fascinating. I have some additional comments on Ioan in this regard (see below), but, in general, I’ve never really made religion the centerpiece of any of my HB games before. I think inventing a competing religion was a great way to tackle the issue, especially because I’m sure the two religions weren’t actually all that different from an outsider’s perspective. The real conflict is within the different characters who treat their religious differences as truly life and death. That’s some great material for HB characters.
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Now for your specific questions:
1. You’ve seemed to answer your own question here. I agree that, if you were looking for a conflict between Dorin and Ioan, there was plenty to choose from. Seeking forgiveness would be a good choice for example. I also think that, given your description of the scene in the larger context of the story, you handled it quite well. The two characters effectively stalemated. If you wanted to involve the resolution mechanic, you probably would have gotten a more lopsided outcome.
2. This one is a bit trickier. A few internal conflicts are ok once in a while, but, I agree with you, it’s best to use the resolution system for external conflicts. And that’s really how I have to answer your question. Let’s look at Ioan’s goals:
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Ioan desired to find transcendent peace through his religious worship in following his hero Jeroboam, arrange a safe, secure marriage for his sister Irina (which didn't include Dorin as an option, at least to begin with), and as a Conscience influence to find "real," more tangible peace in terms of political stability.
Given your descriptions, I’d say that Ioan certainly had powerful influences and goals. He must have gotten himself into at least a few situations where he was pushing towards these things, yes? Only his first goal seems to be particularly internal, but even there you had an influential NPC, Jeroboam, who seemed to be very involved in politics and willing to push Ioan into action. Just because Ioan was religious doesn’t mean that he should sit around meditating all the time.
Also, did Ioan’s player seem engaged with the fiction? If there wasn’t a turtling problem, then I’d say that you really have to look at using the NPCs that were closest to Ioan to get him into the action. When in doubt, force the PC into a situation where he has to act (a fight, a physically threatened sibling, a religious riot, etc.). Then it becomes less about what the PC should think about or decide in the long term, and more about: “Act NOW!” If you can get the ball rolling, then follow-up conflicts should present themselves.
That’s not to say that Ioan shouldn’t have time to think, but, as you found, it probably doesn’t make for a very conflict-heavy story.
- Tim
P.S. Yes, of course you can call me Tim. No need to even ask.
Lorthyne:
Tim,
I actually ran the first game in which Jeroboam was a PC. However, I decided I wanted to play in the next round, and so I ended up playing Dorin, while another member of the group did the GMing. I also felt that his "lone beast hunter ending," to use your words, was particularly fitting, as I ended up dropping that influence to 0 very early in the game and focused on the other two influences, and his eventual failure at accomplishing both of those led to the decision to pursue the almost-forgotten fantasy of his childhood.
To answer your other question, Ioan's player was very much involved in the story and events of the game. I thought you might appreciate knowing that this game of Hero's Banner was the first tabletop role-playing experience for both Ravian's and Ioan's players, and it was a phenomenal success. Granted, Ravian's player is a theater major, and Ioan's an English literature major, so they have significant background in other storytelling methods.
I'm happy to say that Hero's Banner won over a few new converts to our cause.
I have another question, though. How do you feel dice rolls and player decisions for their character should interact? Take the same situation discussed earlier, with the conflict between Dorin and Ioan. Let's say we had decided to make a conflict about whether Dorin could convince Ioan to forgive him, but Ioan's player doesn't feel like Ioan could ever get over the damage Dorin has dealt to his family? I know in the Hero's Banner book you discuss player vs player conflicts, and how it should be possible for both players to succeed or fail at their respective attempts.
Let's say that Dorin succeeds in his roll to convince Ioan to forgive him. The only way I can think of to resolve this would be that in this moment, Dorin is able to convince Ioan that forgiveness is the only reasonable response, even though Ioan hates the idea. This may later lead to Ioan becoming even more incensed at Dorin than he was previously, angry that he no longer has logical ground to stand on for his emotional response. Of course, the trick would be to find a solution that all of the players are happy with.
What do you think about that?
Tim C Koppang:
Lorthyne,
A theater major and an English major! Sounds like my kind of people. Excellent. And I’m very happy to hear that they, as new roleplayers, enjoyed themselves so much. It really does sound like a successful session.
To answer your question, I want to first correct a misconception you may have about PC vs. PC conflicts. They should only happen when the characters are directly opposed to one another. So if the conflict is about Dorin extracting forgiveness out of Ioan (which Ioan is resisting), then a victory for Dorin means he gets his forgiveness. If Ioan wins, then he denies Dorin the satisfaction. And that’s that.
In the book, when I say that the PCs may want to revise their goals to avoid inter-player conflict, I mean avoid the conflict altogether. If you have a situation where both players are trying to do something truly orthogonal to each other, then I suggest resolving both conflicts independently, as normal checks, one right after the other.
In the situation you describe, there is certainly a PC vs. PC conflict. Roll the dice. Winner takes all. If Ioan comes to regret buckling to Dorin in later scenes, that’s fine. However, a loss for Ioan is a loss. Don’t undercut the consequences or let Ioan wiggle out of the result. Ioan would really forgive Dorin.
Tim C Koppang:
Quote from: Tim C Koppang on October 27, 2010, 09:23:10 PM
To get to the heart of your question, let me first start by saying that all scenes do not need to end with an actual conflict.
...
Now, that said, Hero's Banner can be a pretty intense experience, and the mechanics do encourage lots of conflict -- and the desire for lots of Passion checks. In all honesty, if you're the GM, you probably should be shooting for a conflict in every scene.
It's been pointed out to me by someone who's name happens to start with Ron Edwards, that the two statements above are contradictory, and possibly confusing. When I went and checked the HB book on conflicts, I also found to my amazement that my my first statement above directly contradicts the rules of the game. On page 49, I wrote:
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Each scene needs to climax with a conflict and therefore a conflict check. Without conflicts that challenge the players to choose among their influences, there is no game. The gm needs to set scenes that are on the brink of erupting into conflict, but most of the time it will be up to the players to push the scene over that brink. Players cannot sit back and passively wait for the story to come to them. They have to actively involve their characters in the story, making the story their own as much as anyone else at the table.
Whoops! That's why I write these things down.
So let me be clear. Every scene should build to and end with a conflict. The GM's job is to frame loaded scenes built around what the PCs care most about. The player's job is to play his character in such a way that he goes looking for a conflict.
Now, as a slight cop-out, I will say that you should not unnecessarily prolong a scene that is failing to deliver. If that's the case, have a little out-of-character chat and decide what needs to change in the scene to make it work. Introduce another NPC into the action. Frame to a different location. In other words, figure out why the player isn't engaging and correct the problem. Chatting with the player is a better solution that just hitting the abort button and moving to a different player. You don't want to cheat anyone out of their opportunity to hit their passion score.
Does that help?
Ron Edwards:
As an interested party and booster of the game, I suggest letting some scenes end without conflicts. These would include when:
1. Some useful and satisfying interaction has occurred and has apparently concluded without generating a conflict
2. Nothing useful or satisfying seems to be emerging, in which case I also suggest finding something colorful to say like "The autumn leaves swirl in a wind-driven column, making a brief tapestry of brown, orange, and gold in the air," and closing it fast
As I see it, doing both of these when needed actually facilitates the generation of the most powerful and relevant conflicts the game can deliver.
Best, Ron
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