Trollbabe barrage of questions: help!
Moreno R.:
Another question to add to the four above:
5) What happen if a trollbabe use magic to bring to herself another trollbabe, who is in the middle of another adventure? (the original question was about "the nearer trollbabe", but I would like to know the answer even in the case the player name a specific trollbabe)
As you can see, my barrage of questions during the translation wasn't so over the top, regarding "strange questions that people will ask..."
Ron Edwards:
Hi Moreno,
The problem with your barrage of questions is that it exposed multiple errors, misstatements, inconsistencies, and bad choices on my part. I am still recovering.
These, on the other hand, are no problem at all.
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1) The use of Magic outside of a conflict is a source of confusion (or, at least, different opinions about it). I assume as a given that, outside of conflicts, the trollbabe can use Magic in any "colorful" way she wants (for example, the player can describe the trollbabe appearing in a puff of smoke right at the start of the adventure, or arriving in an island after having passed the sea, on foot, at the bottom. Even If I like a less showy and more mysterious use of magic, it would the the player's choice.).
As long as it accomplishes nothing that is counter to any other character's interests, that is correct. However, I have a hard time imagining such a thing. If she arrives in a puff of smoke at the immediate start of an adventure, that is OK. But if she arrives in the middle of some kind of conflict or problem, then it's participating in a conflict. As GM, I would interpret the announcement that "I arrive in a puff of smoke" as begging for a conflict, especially since the player did not state some kind of destination, so the destination and circumstances of arrival are my choice. I would make that choice very, very problematic for the trollbabe, and I would instantly call a conflict. Therefore the statement would be the first part of a Fair & Clear phase, in which I would be very harsh concerning what various NPCs are doing and how their activities would disrupt the trollbabe's magic and make it do something quite terrible.
What I am really saying, at a more general level, is that the player should be more specific about what the character is actually doing. Where are they? What are they literally physically doing? Where are they trying to go, in a puff of smoke, and why? What do they want to accomplish by doing this? A great deal of the time, the answer will imply a conflict. If it doesn't, or if it's too vague, then I can make it a conflict. If the player really and truly only wants to have the trollbabe be in the designated area and wants a little dramatic magic to have the arrival be colorful, then the player should be explicit about this by how the trollbabe's actions and dialogue are described. I might be OK with that. And I could still, if I wanted, make a conflict out of it.
"I want to arrive secretly and safely."
"Conflict!"
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The problem arrive when the trollbabe try to use magic, outside of conflicts, on things at a bigger scale than the adventure.
The case in example was a trollbabe that, to get to a pirate ship without getting wet, made a "ten commandments style parting of the water" on a very big mass of water. Much higher than her in Scale. Seeing that she would have failed automatically if someone had called a conflict about it, can she do it automatically if nobody call a conflict?
Let's clarify slightly: if it were an ordinary conflict, then no, she would not automatically fail at her Goal. "Parting the waters" is not a Goal, it's some kind of trapping or color concerning a Goal. This strikes me as identical to my example with the giant gates. Her Goal is to get to the ship without getting wet, and that's a perfectly wonderful Personal-Scale Goal. Fine. She casts a spell to part the waters. That is also fine. Let's say she succeeds - who's narrating? You are, the GM, and all you have to do is narrate something that gets her there without getting wet, that involves her magic, that does not violate the Scale. That is actually not very hard at all.
You're getting sucked into task-thinking, or even worse, God damned fucking stupid abominable Stakes-thinking (well, 99.9% of the time; there are a couple game designs which use it well), which is to say, pre-narrating something and rolling to see if that's exactly how it happens. That is not Trollbabe. The narration of what actually happens is not the same as what the trollbabe is trying to do, even if she succeeds. Especially and by definition if she succeeds, if her efforts exceed her Scale.
As far as whether she can do it without a conflict, that's not a possibility either. By announcing something of this sort, the GM is almost absolutely constrained to call a conflict about it. That would be an extreme case of my "swim across the ocean" example, in which the constraint was not quite as binding. But this one is binding.
"I part the waters to split the ocean before me!"
"Conflict!" (and then we go into it with the same point applying - that success would mean the GM narrates, and it's part of his or her job to keep the success within the right Scale)
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2) In case someone had called a conflict in that situation, and the objective of the trollbabe is not "part the water" (that is outside of her scale) but simply "getting on the ship without getting wet". So in this case the parting of the sea would be a narration of success from the GM. Seeing that the objective (getting there) was at her scale or lower, and anything over that scale is under the authority of the GM, the GM can narrate a "colorful" parting of the sea to let the trollbabe pass?
No. See above. The GM can narrate anything that's consistent with what's been said in Fair & Clear, and consistent with success at the Goal, but not above the trollbabe's Scale. Use your imagination and remember that magic is magical, and hence full of unexpected events.
I mean, it could be as simple as saying that the sea parts only enough for her at any given time, so it's clearly a Personal effect she's generated and not any kind of "I command the whole of the mighty waters" effect. See, it wasn't hard at all.
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3) Same situation, but the player want to narrate the parting of the sea (or anything on a similar scale) to describe her trollbabe's defeat (maybe she did get to part the sea, but someone distract her and the spell crashes with her in the middle of the closing waters). I doubt very much this is allowed, but it doesn't hurt asking to be sure...
Wait a minute ... OK, I am going to assume that the Goal is still the Personal one of getting to the ship without getting wet. So, the player fails and ... well, then we have to know how badly. Inconvenienced? Injured? Incapacitated? The difference does not automatically define the Scale of what might happen to her, but it's very hard to discuss narrations without knowing. But I will try.
Would it be OK for the player to say that the ocean crashes upon her and inundates her with all that water? Certainly! That's the ocean doing something, not her magic.
I can say for sure that your parenthetical suggestion is not correct, because she didn't get to part the sea.
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4) Another question about the location of an adventure: can it be on another plane of reality, or in any place not on the mapped world? (the actual play case: in one adventure I GM'd the trollbabe went to the "lower planes" to get herself an army of undead, subjugating their king and taking the army as a relationship. In that case, the adventure started and ended on a location of the map, where the "portal" was situated. But what if that player, in another adventure, describe the trollbabe right on that plane?
No. This is not Planescape. The rule says, "a location on the map," and that's the real rule.
Also, during the adventure with the lower planes and undead, the player may have violated the "no new information" rule. If the GM had established the portal and existence of the undead something-or-other, then that would be all right, but not otherwise. Players have absolutely no authority over setting and back-story in this game, and most especially not through narrating dice outcomes. This is not a "roll dice to dominate creative input" system.
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5) What happen if a trollbabe use magic to bring to herself another trollbabe, who is in the middle of another adventure? (the original question was about "the nearer trollbabe", but I would like to know the answer even in the case the player name a specific trollbabe)
This is actually pretty cool. "Go to the nearest trollbabe" is in fact a viable Goal for a Magic conflict. I think that would be non-problematic, although it would be a conflict, because I as GM would make it my business to narrate the outcome as disadvantageously and undesirably as possible. I wouldn't specify how, because there is no pre-narration in the game, but I would call the conflict and explain myself, if necessary, that I have every intention of narrating the outcome as exceptionally against the trollbabe's interests, and that automatically requires a conflict roll.
Best, Ron
Moreno R.:
Hi Ron!
I will try to digest these answers and, more importantly, to translate them in Italian, to see if there are more questions. But before that, I want to explain better the question #5
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5) What happen if a trollbabe use magic to bring to herself another trollbabe, who is in the middle of another adventure? (the original question was about "the nearer trollbabe", but I would like to know the answer even in the case the player name a specific trollbabe)
This is actually pretty cool. "Go to the nearest trollbabe" is in fact a viable Goal for a Magic conflict. I think that would be non-problematic, although it would be a conflict, because I as GM would make it my business to narrate the outcome as disadvantageously and undesirably as possible. I wouldn't specify how, because there is no pre-narration in the game, but I would call the conflict and explain myself, if necessary, that I have every intention of narrating the outcome as exceptionally against the trollbabe's interests, and that automatically requires a conflict roll.
I would not have had any problem with a trollbabe teleporting herself to another trollbabe's side (I think it would be a simple variant of "leaving the adventure" and "entering another trollbabe's adventure", right?). The problem is that the player wanted to teleport ANOTHER trollbabe, to his trollbabe's side. Taking, by force, another trollbabe from another adventure.
The actual play example where this happened had a trollbabe calling (forcing a teleport) of another trollbabe right to her side simply to demonstrate to a mob that she was not unique. It was a situation so riddled with errors (there were vague declared objectives, new information in the middle of a conflict, etc.) to be easily rejected, but it leaves open the general question: what can do a GM if a player do something like this as an objective in a magic conflict.
Moreno R.:
Adding to the still dangling question #5 above...
6) one issue that did come up in some discussions about trollbabe was about what "scale" means, in the fiction, regarding what the trollbabe can do. (with magic, in particular)
- the trollbabe is learning and is becoming more powerful (or learn more powerful spells) as time go on? (the scale of the trollbabe's magic is a known quality in the fiction)
- Or she, in the fiction, already know more powerful magic, but "it happen" that she don't do anything too big at the beginning? As in The trollbabe know that she can use spells above her scale, but the player know that she will fail in their use? (the scale has no meaning in the fiction, but only at the player's level)
- Or this matter is left completely to the narration and the fiction created during the game?
7) Another question posted in the forum: let's say that two trollbabes are at scale 7, and they are in the same land, but they did choose two different locations on the map inside of the land. The stakes must be very high: for example, for one of them it could be the fate of the entire kingdom. But the other trollbabe is inside that same kingdom, too..
- It's possible for the GM to use the same stakes for the other trollbabe, too, making they play in the same adventure? (at this Scale, they probably have entire armies and cities as relationship...)
- If the other trollbabe is inside the land that is at stake, MUST the GM use the same stakes, or the second trollbabe can play an independent adventure? (the problem here is that what the first trollbabe do to the kingdom will have consequences on the other trollbabe)
Ron Edwards:
Hi Moreno,
Please tell everyone at the forum thank you for their interest in my game! I appreciate all the questions.
Also, for those reading here, I want to clarify my earlier post about Moreno's questions to me. I was referring to the questions he asked when translating the game into Italian. They were very humbling questions because basically, he found every imaginable shortcoming of design and presentation. I insisted he be included as an editor credit because without him, the text would be gravely deficient.
On to the questions.
5. To transport another trollbabe from some unknown location to one's side ... that is a very interesting question as well. I have never thought about it. So I will simply try to apply the written rules.
I think this is two conflicts, not one. The first conflict is acting against the interests of the other trollbabe, and then the second would be convincing the crowd (or rather, if successful, one person in the crowd). The more I think about it, the more this makes sense.
Considering Scale first, the Personal works fine for the first conflict. Or if you disagree considering the distance involved, then I suggest narrating a success as opening a visual portal to show the other trollbabe, which still achieves the Goal ("bring her here") without violating the distance limitation that a particular GM might like to impose.
However, convincing a whole crowd is definitely above her Scale. This issue is easily solved with the ordinary rules about this, by having the GM narrate that only one person is genuinely convinced. (The others may be either un-convinced or merely uncertain. After all, this magic being just conjured up something. It's probably a trick!)
I was going to write some more about this example, but given those applications of the rules, I don't see any further problem with it. If she succeeds in the Magic roll, the other trollbabe appears. If she succeeds in the convincing roll, one person in the crowd is convinced. The opportunities for negative repercussions in both cases are immense. The opportunities for fun outcomes of failed rolls are also immense. (If I were the player and failed the Magic roll, I'd love to pop my trollbabe into the other adventure instead! Whoops!)
The GM should have no trouble with the "abandoned" adventure. The rules about how to deal with an adventure when a trollbabe departs are pretty clear, I think.
I want to stress that such an act does not violate the social or creative contract of play. I want to shout, loudly, that Trollbabe adventures are not D&D adventure modules. There is no mandated policy or expectation to "run a character through" an adventure.
6. Regarding the in-fiction meaning of increasing Scale, I am reluctant to say "either in-fiction improvement or revealed prior ability." That's true, but it's not the answer, and I am wary that saying that as the answer will ultimately be misleading.
The real answer is that you don't have to explain it. In the kind of comics and stories that inspire Trollbabe, such explanations are rare or absent. If you want to say that she learns better magic, you can; and if you want to say that she's known how to do this all along, you can. But the real answer is that if you don't want to, you don't have to say (or know!) a damned thing about it. And furthermore, any of these three options can be utilized at any time for one's character.
I recommend cultivating this mind-set in order to develop the fullest aesthetic appreciation of the game's rules and effects.
7. I don't see any problem with your proposed situation. No one said that one trollbabe's adventure isn't supposed to affect another's situation or adventure. They may share the adventure with the same Stakes, or they may have two different adventures, as the GM decides.
Best, Ron
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