Stone, Steel, and Steam - Revised and Ready to Test
markgamemaker:
First of all, thank you very much for your responses. I've had a lot of trouble getting people I know to respond, and I welcome your hard-hitting insights.
Technology
Quote from: johnthedm7000 on December 17, 2010, 08:07:18 PM
Regarding the fiction of your game, I'm curious as to why the less advanced societies who are stuck at a stone age, bronze age, or iron age level of technology which have had contact with more advanced societies with imperialist tendencies have not been absorbed into the empires of those imperialistic countries. As RL history will tell you, less technologically advanced peoples don't exist side by side with technologically advanced imperialist nations without the less advanced peoples eventually getting steamrolled, or using the technology of their attackers to fight back. If perhaps you provided reasons in the fiction why this had not taken place (such as terrain or climate that makes conquest difficult, powerful Praxis on the part of the less developed peoples, or due to the countries in question being distracted by other concerns), then this would be easier to swallow, but as it stands it hurts my suspension of disbelief. This is especially striking because other than that you've done a very good job of creating interesting societies from the ground up without resorting to cliches often found in RPG material.
This I thought I covered in the text, and your question shows me that I did not explain it adequately. So, note to self, fix that. The differences in technology levels are largely a matter of geographic isolation and in some cases economic access. You do see these kinds of technological gaps in RL, even today. I imagine you're referring mostly to the gaps between Aralei, Retulia, and Elme/'Haraz? The Aralean Empire is a cavalry-based power, and while they reign supreme in the savannah around the Inner Sea and they claim to rule areas far to the north and south, their ability to actually project power into the northern mountains and the southern swamps, jungles, and mountains is limited. Plus they've been caught up in civil wars for a long time. The peoples they conquered are now at the same technology level, and even though they're not ethnic Aralean, they're included in that cultural 'zone.' So a lot of people did get steamrolled and assimilated and are now using the tools of their attackers, but they don't get their own unit precisely because they have ceased to be culturally and technologically distinct.
Retulia is not so much Bronze Age as it is early Iron Age, while Aralei is later Iron Age, and they have had quite a bit of interaction. It's like the difference between Scotland and Italia c. 200 AD. Given another few hundred years left to themselves, the Retulians might have caught up, and the Borderlands already have some more tech than the average Retulian (which I need to specify).
The Nehom have low tech for religious reasons and nobody has been able to steamroll them because they're badass Amish sand ninjas hiding in the desert with a strong tradition of Praxis. You try to conquer them, they foresee you coming, they'll poison a well to kill all your horses and leave the rest of you to die of thirst or pick you off one by one in the night. Marym is on the conquering trail, and so far the Nehom desert has acted as a sort of insulator, but it won't last.
Also, these are very broad strokes. Sure, Araleans generally don't have guns, but you know that some have been captured or stolen or smuggled no matter how hard the Taksans try to prevent it. Some Elmes may have Aralean steel tools and let's say a small number even understand how to make them, but they don't have the infrastructure to create them locally.
Magic
One of the core aesthetics of the game is that magic is invisible, really more like psionics or the Force. People that don't believe in magic aren't crazy or stupid, it's just not measurable. Weather magic, yes, and it was in consideration, I just hadn't figured out a good mechanic for it. Shala does a rain dance, and then it rains, but you can't know that it wasn't going to rain anyway - that works for me. Shapeshifting not so much. Shala turns into a wolf and everyone says, holy crap! She just turned into a wolf! The existence of magic is now indisputable - and that doesn't work for me. Of course, you could use some of the mind-altering powers of Harmonize to make someone believe you/they had been shapeshifted, and there would be stories of it, but any kind of 'scientific' analysis of the event reveals it was 'just some dumb superstition' or 'mass hysteria.' I like your idea of hexes/anti-hexes, and I also considered adding some kind of battle meditation. I think I will add more 'spells,' not sure yet about a build-a-spell toolkit, but I'll consider it.
There is a spectrum of belief in and use of Praxis. Most Taksans don't believe, which is partially their pragmatism, a reaction to the abuses of their Imperial period, and a conspiracy promoted by the Central Police. Many Araleans believe, but think it's evil (which is a tidbit that didn't make it in to this draft, note to self). Most Granarctians believe and think only priests should use it. Moy, Retulians, Elme, and 'Haraz all have their shamans and mystics. Nehom and Marym are practically magocracies. I should explicate all that, either in the country descriptions, or the Praxis chapter, or both.
Karma
Let me just say it's sometimes vastly intimidating posting on the Forge. I feel like a primary school kid saying 'Yay! I like animals!' and I come to this convention where everyone's discussing mitochondrial RNA and Malthusian carrying capacities. So, posting on zero sleep and trying to sound impressive because I explore Important Concepts, I probably sounded like more of an idiot than usual. When I say we're going to be exploring issues of colonialism, et al., I don't mean we're necessarily going to be participating in committing atrocities. I mean we're not dealing with a sanitized, heroic version of colonial (pseudo)history, nor are we dealing with a revisionist white guilt version. One thing that's very important to me that I hope I conveyed in the text is that there are no good and bad nations, but there are good and bad people, there are going to be acts of heroism and generosity of spirit and villainy and brutality on both sides. I'm not trying to be edgy, per se, but I reserve the right to be.
One, I sincerely believe that you sow what you reap. Whether that's your slaves rising up in revolt or literally the universe knocking you on your ass is merely aesthetics. It doesn't always happen right away, and you can be really horrible and get away with it for long periods of time, you might even outrun it for your entire mortal life, but it will catch up to you. I feel that a cosmic moral law is a spiritual reality, and a realistic game will reflect that. Of course, it doesn't need to be a mechanic. I don't have a mechanic for falling damage, that doesn't mean I won't kill or injure a PC that jumps off a cliff. Also, I like to encourage heroic play, but being doing what's 'right' usually isn't the most compelling strategy. Why shouldn't we torture the prisoner for information? Why should we help these suffering villagers who can't pay us. A karmic balancer takes care of that.
Two, I see it as much a player mechanic as a character mechanic. I run a very delicately balanced game. I don't run a G-rated enchanted fantasy where nobody poops and nobody bleeds. But I also don't run noir games full of degenerates and horror, and I think there's a lot of middle ground there to cover. My players have different comfort levels for that, and I see one of my roles as gamemaster as a kind of social thermostat. In my experience, when a game has no morality mechanic and I deliver some karmic retribution to remind a player that he's pushing the limits we've set, he'll usually take it as a personal attack. You're making an in-game decision based on a meta-game value judgement, it's arbitrary and unfair, and players are highly sensitive to that. If I have a rule that says, if you do x, you lose Karma, that's the rules talking, not the GM, so the player knows he brought this on himself. But it's still my way of nudging a player to remind him of where the line for our group is, but it's a little more subtle and nuanced than a meteor strike, and it's an in-game resolution rather than taking him aside.
I explicitly left it up to the players and the GMs to decide what's going to be good and evil in their game. I gave some general guidelines and left it at that. Karmic backlash is not 'and then lightning strikes you' - it's a slight increase in probability of something bad happening to your character, or a decrease in probability in having something good happen, and it's a temporary condition. Even if I were playing another game with no morality mechanic, I would tack this on.
My game experience has largely been with Star Wars, 2nd ed., Exalted 1st ed., and occasional dabbling in The Riddle of Steel and D&D 3.x/Pathfinder. I've heard a lot about Dogs in the Vineyard but haven't read it, so I don't know too many cutting-edge alternate approaches to morality mechanics. In Star Wars, morality only matters if you're Force-sensitive, and it's black-and-white. My team felt that Exalted morality mechanics didn't make sense, so we largely ignored them.
I've got playtests with my own group coming up in January. I'll post something in Actual Play to show it in action.
Renee:
Hi there markgamemaker,
I just want to say, your last post was extremely productive for me, but probably not in the way you would expect.
You say
Quote
One, I sincerely believe that you sow what you reap.
That's interesting for me, because I don't believe that. My personal, lived experience suggests that sometimes good people suffer, and no amount of sowing goodwill is ever enough to raise them up out of the muck. And there are lucky people out there who never suffer...and don't deserve half of what they have. Furthermore, I find the belief that "what comes around goes around" and "good things happen if you just work hard enough" to be firmly rooted in privilege, specifically white heterosexual cisgender able-bodied male privilege.
Now, I'm not here to argue privilege! I do that enough elsewhere. But my point is that your comments about karma and how they filter into your setting evoked a highly emotional response on my part. We could have a conversation about this here...but if a game could capture that discussion and bring it forward, through the decisions and judgments of the players and their characters...that would be theme in the Narrativist sense. And I think it's something your setting seems built for...with these different cultures in conflict, some with their education and wealth and privilege and the others who don't have those things and would be marginalized as a result.
So, and this is just my take, if Karma is important to your game, and you actually are interested in producing something that evokes theme in the Narrativist sense (which you don't have to be), one fertile plot of ground to play in would be the space between "karma is real" and "karma isn't real" (and all the ideas those things call to mind, like justice, fairness, equality, happiness, etc.). You've clearly answered the question for yourself, but what if other people have different answers? I don't know you you would implement that mechanically, but it was the most powerful emotional thread I've picked up from my (admittedly brief) reading of your posts here. At the very least, though, I think the discussion around the idea can elucidate some of Ron's points about how Narrativist games develop theme through play.
Best,
Renee
(edited to correct a typo and to add the last sentence)
johnthedm7000:
Thank you for your detailed and well-reasoned post-I really appreciate your response.
Praxis
What you've said definitely makes sense, if you're looking only for magic that's explainable as circumstance (even if it's odd or unlikely circumstance). As someone whose done some study of RL occult systems and who has always been a big fan of RPG magic systems, I'd love to suggest additional effects for you to incorporate into your Praxis structure. Just off the top of my head:
Causing/Curing Infertility "I thought my wife was barren, but I guess we just needed to try some more"
Weather Magic "They say anyone who bothers that old crone gets a storm that ruins their crops, but I just say it's their fault for living up on a hill."
Blessings of various kinds "Oh my boy? There's no Praxis there, he's just got shoulders like an Ox! Just like his father." (Blessings of beauty, strength, luck, skill, and wealth are all good possibilities)
Weakening/Strengthening objects "By the prophetess! I thought this door would break by now!"
Hexes of all sorts, including story-oriented curses like "Fire will be as a traitorous dog to you." or "You will never find love until you return what you have stolen." where the effects can be shrugged off as coincidence (or not).
Minor alteration of chance "Son of a bitch. He must be using loaded dice!"
Ability to ignore things like heat, cold, or injuries for a short time "The Nehom warriors-they'll tell you what they endure is through magic. But it's just because they're tough as nails."
Karma
I definitely respect your beliefs about reciprocity, as I hold similar views on the subject. But I do think that hardcore moose made an excellent point when he said that the debate over whether or not "what goes around comes around" is an excellent theme to discuss through the avenue of an RPG. One thing to consider is having each character provide his vision of how the world works, and when things go the way they should according to his worldview the player is rewarded somehow. Now when things go against the character's world view-when the idealistic young Retulian who believes that "everything happens for a reason" gets mugged in a big city and then shanghai'ed onto a slave ship, then they have a decision to make. Do they stick with their beliefs and the morals that they hold dear, and sacrifice something else to keep their beliefs intact? Or do they change their belief system to fit the situation, and come away a different person, with different motivations?
Example: Zarai, a Nehom tribesman was cast out of his village for wishing to brazenly preach the Nehomese faith to outlanders, something that would endanger the Nehom who are held as apostates and heretics. He believes that "If you work hard, things will work out alright for you." he gains a bonus to tasks that exemplify this attitude, as this is what he believes in deeply. But after 6 months of ministering to the Araelian people, he's been beaten, kicked, cast away, and even once (he believes) hexed by a powerful Praxis user. He's faced with the decision to change his attitude, or suffer the consequences and "keep the faith". He decides to give up some measure of his brazen belief in his Prophetess-better to be subtle, and not rile up the city folk. He changes his dress, his mannerisms, and even starts using a pistol (something that would earn him exile or death amongst his own people), and changes his belief to "Blend in, and you won't get hurt."
You don't need to use that exact mechanic, but I think it might be something interesting to consider.
masqueradeball:
I don't disagree that the use of a Karma mechanic could be good for Story Now play but it seems that it's purpose here is a way to reinforce the social contract accepted or agreed to by theplay group. If your group thinks rape, for instance is too real or taboo, then there's a mechanical penalty for going there on fiction. It's a tried and true Sim mechanic that's been successfully used in both Marvel Super Heroes and Pendragon. The big difference here is that as far as I know the Karma awards are based on the player's real world moral systems, which even in very healthy groups could make play go south quickly. It seems wiser to tie the karma awards into explicit in game idea of morality, even if it's a single universal system, and not a culturally realitivistic one.
johnthedm7000:
I suppose really it depends on what Mark wants to accomplish-I gathered from his "mission statement" that the game is meant to have Narrativist elements, although the mechanics and the tone of the advice given in the game text gives the impression that this is also a game system with a strong Simulationist "spine". I definitely agree with masqueradeball though that tying Karma into real-world morality can get murky pretty quickly, unless of course the game is set up to handle heavy moral issues, and the "play" or "GM" section of the book has extensive advice for dealing with that sort of thing.
It can be done (I've been GM'ing a Mutants and Masterminds game for going on 5 or 6 years that handles real-life moral issues in a mature and sophisticated way, and with players that have a wide variety of religious and political opinions. I'm a Wiccan, one of the players is a devout Lutheran, one is a "Strong" Atheist, and the last is a moderate Muslim. Despite this, we've never really had a problem tackling tough social and moral issues in our games) but it's certainly not easy, and often times it requires either an unusually strong gaming group, or a section of the book specifically dedicated to making sure moral issues don't become a minefield for players.
On an unrelated note, I accidentally fell into the cliche gamer trap of assuming that there are "no women on the interwebz" and referred to hardcoremoose as a he. Hopefully I won't make any similar mistake again, as I've tried very hard not to fall victim to any other such cliches such as living in my mom's basement or consuming copious quantities of Mountain Dew and Cheetos.
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