[Final Hour of a Storied Age] An Empty Throne Beckons
Dan Maruschak:
Related to the topic of spotlight distribution, Nolan completed his character's subplot in chapter 11 in this session. That means his character won't be the viewpoint character in any more chapters (although she can be introduced in a supporting role, like any other character). It also means that Nolan will only interact with the game in the "adversity player" role from that point on.
Also, in chapter 7, we had an instance of a possible weakness in the game. We were usually pretty good about actually narrating fiction instead of just naming the traits and rolling the dice, but the temptation to skip the narration is strongest when the trait configuration doesn't change and it's sort of implied that earlier narration still covers the present situation. When no die sizes get changed or traits get exhausted there aren't any mechanical prompts that suggest changes in the fiction so the game is entirely reliant on player discipline to do the right thing and narrate. (I don't think my game is alone in this -- people just naming the skill they're using to give a helping die in Mouse Guard instead of narrating an action is a common breakdown, for example). There was an exchange in chapter 7 where it looks like Leo skipped past the fiction to a degree (not trying to call him out as a bad player, just pointing out where it happened). I think the game might be stronger if there was always a change in the dice/trait situation between exchanges to prompt new narration, but mucking with the dice mechanics to make that happen would have other consequences, potentially negative ones.
Ron Edwards:
Hi Dan,
I'm not sure that's necessarily a weakness. If it characterized the use of traits, then I'd be concerned, but as an occasional feature of using traits to help other traits,
I've been wrestling with this issue for a long time, especially since playing Hero Wars so extensively. In some cases, when an ability was named as an augmenter (to use the jargon of the game), it seemed instantly obvious. When Maura said, "I'm using Dope Slap to augment my Lawspeaker," it was so clear that no one even blinked. I can't remember whether she accompanied the statement with a hand gesture to show us what she meant, but if she didn't, I think all of us incorporated the image of her character doing this so immediately, upon the mere mention of the ability on the sheet, without fail.
However, in other cases, players would seize upon various abilities for augmenting in a rapid-fire way, relying solely on naming them. Sometimes they'd make sense to us, other times they wouldn't, and in either case, the fiction itself was being omitted, dropping the collective level of shared understanding of the fictional imagery.
Since all sorts of games now utilize variations on this technique, most especially Dogs in the Vineyard and its overwhelming horde of imitators, I've seen the same trends for years across many groups. I think the question is whether the first kind of quickie-use, without descriptive narration but with immediate imagined participation anyway, is the norm, with the latter being an occasional, possibly acceptable exception. If that's so, then I suggest it's no big deal.
I should also point to the opposite trend, which is extensive bloviating, empty-Color narration to whore for bonuses. The curse here is Wushu, a game built on nothing except this problem, which has unaccountably gained some kind of credit as a good thing. I'll take the occasional quickie-no-description helping trait any time over the risk of enforcing talk for talk's sake.
Best, Ron
stefoid:
Havent played Wushu, but just read the wiki.
ron, what do you mean by empty color?
At a guess, the popularity might be that the color isnt empty for the players who like it -- for one thing you get a mechanical reward for embellishing your descriptions and for another, the player is guaranteed that their descriptions happen in the fiction, even if the consequences are then judged by the GM, so that is a form of narrative control, maybe micro control if you like. I can see how that would appeal to players who havent played a game where they get any narrative control at all.
Ron Edwards:
Hi Steffen,
I don't intend to justify my point to an imaginary set of third parties who represent the counter-claim. Nor, even if I did, would I find value in the argument that Wushu play is at least superior to infantilized play in which one's ability to talk at all is stifled. That's like saying a car which runs very badly is at least better than one on concrete blocks; it's an argument of no relevance to those who want to build excellent cars.
To answer your question, it's a circle in the sense of being tautological. You talk in order to roll dice, and you roll dice in order to talk. There is no subject to be colored, nothing that the conflicts are about except to see the traits get talked about.
But that should end here. I only went this far to answer in hopes that it clarified my point to Dan.
If the issue seems like a big deal to you rather than a momentary posting, or if anyone wants to discuss Wushu as a game (or as I see it, pseudo-game), then begin an Actual Play thread toward that end, following the forum requirements. Getting into that here is drifting the thread topic from Dan's stated questions.
Best, Ron
Dan Maruschak:
Ron,
I think I agree that I'm not so much worried about talking as about development of the fictional situation -- talking is the most common way to do that, but you've got a point that it might not be the only way. I think in this particular instance neither one happened, though. I agree that it's probably not worth worrying about if it's only an occasional glitch. If it happens a lot, it's a bigger issue. If the fictional situation doesn't develop between the rolls I think there's a risk that the fiction starts to break down a little bit, or else the earlier roll could seem meaningless if the exact same situation applies to the next one. I'm looking at this more as a potential stress point in the game where problems could show up, not as a confirmed bug in the design. If I see a pattern of this in future playtests then I may need to start investigating solutions, but there's not enough evidence of a real problem to justify changing the game just yet.
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