[gamist RPGs] Player Driven Games and
Natespank:
Hey guys,
Some of my favorite computer games are [Day of the Tentacle], [World of Warcraft], [Warcraft 3], [Diablo/Torchlight], [Killing Floor], [Half Life 1 and Minerva for HL2], [Left 4 Dead], [DooM original], and obviously [Deathspank]. Deathspank is awesome, especially Thongs of Justice.
Of those games, besides neat stories, the good parts are the interactive parts. The aspects of the game which just involve going from point A to B to C in a set order bores me, there's no freedom or choice, there's no more interactivity than there is in turning a page. Neverwinter nights 2 and Dragonage origins have this problem- their linear and you're prodded along.
The parts that lure me in are the ones that give me a ton of freedom and a range of interesting choices mixed with huge challenge. Take original DooM for example: I can rampage those levels however I like, solve the puzzles in whatever order I like (within limits), learn the mazes, etc. In Warcraft I can develop my own strategies and I don't have some jerk constantly telling me what to do. In Half Life I can run through Black Mesa at my own pace, and in WoW there's not a single required quest- I can go wherever I want and take whichever quests I want. In Day of the Tentacle (epic game) there's dozens of puzzles and you can solve them in whatever order you like, wandering without being pushed this way or that. In Diablo or Torchlight you delve into the dungeons at your own pace, delving deeper if you want it to be harder, or keeping in shallow areas if you like; and all the quests are pretty optional with a few exceptions.
Bearing this in mind, I think a good table top RPG maximizes player freedom and provides a lot of choices that interest players. A sandbox, player-driven campaign with hooks, mystery and challenge mixed in seems to me to be an ideal gamist game design plan. However, this is HARD TO DO! You have to improv and plan a lot to manage it- further, the players might do stupid things for a while and get bored. Lastly, it's really hard to plan a story for the campaign if it's player driven without stealing the reins from time to time.
How much player freedom do you guys use in your games? How have your sandbox campaigns went? Do you have more success with more structured story-driven campaigns? I begin a campaign in the morning that will be as open and player-driven as I can manage, but it's gonna challenge me to balance the freedom and direction I want to use...
Bret Gillan:
Hi Nate,
I am a computer game fanatic and I love and have played most of the games you've described. I'm currently playing Red Dead Redemption, and the open-world and sandbox aspects of the game are fantastic. However, the term "sandbox" can be problematic. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people when describing RPG play (as opposed to video game play). Could you give us some examples from the campaign you're doing now or perhaps a campaign of yours in the past that you feel illustrates what you mean by sandbox play, or an example of when you had a difficult time structuring a story around this kind of play so we can have a better idea of what you mean?
Natespank:
Currently the campaign is in the introductory phase. I tried to arrange it in as open a way as I could.
There's a fame system in my game where people won't give you quests if you have too little fame. They found out about a treasure hunter in the area and want to work with him but he refuses because they're nobodies. Then they plugged the area for information so they could figure out how to become famous. They found out about a cannibal island, a slaver island, a dragon island and a few others; they got vague directions and have been roaming the seas (on a hex map) trying to find the spots- they keep finding the wrong islands including the dragon island and were nearly eaten!
I have a central island with a few important things on it, with many peripheral islands with little notes attached to them. Orcs, halflings, etc. Many represent factions with goals rather than specific quests, so that players can play these factions against each other or attack them at their leisure. Instead of prodding them towards the next objective I simply ask "what do you do now?" They're enjoying the exploration aspect so far.
To make up for players doing boring things I'm careful to add SMART goals in the form of quests- if the players fail to set and achieve their own goals the NPCs offer quests (goals) that are Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Rewarding, and Tangible.
I view gamist games as achievement simulators so this seems to work well. So far the campaign is going perfectly, though I hope they stop stumbling upon the super hard islands and find the easier low-level islands soon. I may send a few hints their way. They got lost and think they're on the slaver island when really they're on the Hydra island- it'll kill them all if they screw up.
Cliff H:
Quote from: Natespank on February 05, 2011, 11:37:39 PM
How much player freedom do you guys use in your games? How have your sandbox campaigns went? Do you have more success with more structured story-driven campaigns? I begin a campaign in the morning that will be as open and player-driven as I can manage, but it's gonna challenge me to balance the freedom and direction I want to use...
The single most successful game I've ever run was similar to this. The campaign set up a situation, and then turned the characters loose. I played the NPCs and introduced some events, but largely I played off what they did. It went fantastically well.
Later, I tried it again, and it bombed. That group didn't want to chart its own path. They wanted the guidance of a traditional, quest based game where they grabbed the plot hook and did what they they were "told." So it really seems to be a matter of taste. Subsequently, I've found the most success in this kind of game by giving the character something they want in an early, scripted scenario that establishes certain characters and conflicts. Then I turn much more control over to them. Once they are oriented in the campaign world, many more of my players seem comfortable charting their own course.
Natespank:
Quote
Later, I tried it again, and it bombed. That group didn't want to chart its own path. They wanted the guidance of a traditional, quest based game where they grabbed the plot hook and did what they they were "told." So it really seems to be a matter of taste. Subsequently, I've found the most success in this kind of game by giving the character something they want in an early, scripted scenario that establishes certain characters and conflicts. Then I turn much more control over to them. Once they are oriented in the campaign world, many more of my players seem comfortable charting their own course.
I think this is why there's quests in WoW and a lot of other games- it's to give the players something to do when they're not inspired to act on their own. I want to use a "go treasure hunting" main quest idea for now to tie this little area of my campaign together, but it's mostly just to help them along. My group's great for setting their own goals.
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