[gamist RPGs] Player Driven Games and
Devon Oratz:
The last D&D campaign I ran was pure sandbox (I created an entire world, populated it with towns, dungeons, and quests, and set them loose in it, with an additional caravan type quest that would take them past the first four or so dungeons, each of which, conveniently enough, was the objective of sidequests offered in the first town) and honestly the players did not seem to like it that much. Basically, I noticed that 4E D&D was tabletop WoW and tried to embrace that. I think they may have preferred there to be an overarching metaplot. Actually, there was, but it was completely hidden and optional, and the hints to it that they found were pretty subtle. I think they may have liked things better if I'd started off with a main story to begin with.
My regular Shadowrun game is um...sort of in the middle. There is certainly an overarching plot. The PCs are (usually) welcome to reject any mission at the table, at which point I scrap the game I'd planned and just run a bull session of the characters doing what they'd like to do instead, perhaps with some of their Enemies and other Negative Qualities coming into play. They have yet to reject a run. Once they accept the run, on a typical game session, I like a model where HOW to do it is completely up to them, with very few hints. I design the opposition "in a vacuum" ignoring their strengths and weaknesses as best as I can. The challenges they're up against are not tailored to their characters' abilities, but to the verisimilitude of the world in question (this kind of simulationism makes sense with the general fluff and flavor of Shadowrun). They have to come up with a Mission Impossible style plan and execute it as best they can. A good plan is more important than dice luck, and every security system has some kind of weakness. To be perfectly blunt: they're pretty bad at this, especially the planning part. But I love them anyway, and everyone seems to be having a good time. PC attrition is very high and those who do survive generally only make it by the skin of their teeth. I hope that this makes it more rewarding for them. Certainly things would be easier
I have run lots of other games but most of them are semi-complete games I have designed and never released that you would not know anything about, or established games that I'm running in a way that has little or nothing to do with their basic setting and premise (nWoD).
I have yet to run any game that was completely linear: most of my games are somewhere in the middle, leaning towards nonlinearity.
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To make up for players doing boring things I'm careful to add SMART goals in the form of quests- if the players fail to set and achieve their own goals the NPCs offer quests (goals) that are Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Rewarding, and Tangible.
Thanks for that rubric! It will be amazingly useful to me in the future, as my LARP is based around making sure that at every game session each PC starts with goals that are exactly that. Whether or not the mnemonic is yours, thanks for mentioning it. : )
stefoid:
Hi Nate.
You are on the right track with your sandbox idea, and the problem is that without you pushing the players, nothing happens, right?
There is a game called sorcerer by Ron Edwards which addresses exactly these issues with some stuff that could be applied to any game.
see the sorcerer link Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer_%28role-playing_game%29
stefoid:
Oh, I should add - the relevant bit is Kickers and Bangs
Natespank:
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Thanks for that rubric! It will be amazingly useful to me in the future, as my LARP is based around making sure that at every game session each PC starts with goals that are exactly that. Whether or not the mnemonic is yours, thanks for mentioning it. : )
The term SMART goal is from some book I read, I can't take credit :( Neat idea though.
Natespank:
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You are on the right track with your sandbox idea, and the problem is that without you pushing the players, nothing happens, right?
Depends a lot on the players; I've had players who could turn a walk to the grocery store into a campaign of some sort. Others have to be spoon fed choices. I think the best campaigns are player driven and open ended, but you need good players for it. I've been lucky.
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Oh, I should add - the relevant bit is Kickers and Bangs
Actually, I have Sorcerer. Bangs are great! I forgot about them, I sort of use them but now I'm gonna reread that section, maybe I can use them intentionally. What I do is if the pace slows too much, I usually start a fight or reveal something or hint something, throw in some sort of proven hook for picking things back up- and sometimes to keep up a pace. I think that's bangs, right?
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The last D&D campaign I ran was pure sandbox (I created an entire world, populated it with towns, dungeons, and quests, and set them loose in it, with an additional caravan type quest that would take them past the first four or so dungeons, each of which, conveniently enough, was the objective of sidequests offered in the first town) and honestly the players did not seem to like it that much. Basically, I noticed that 4E D&D was tabletop WoW and tried to embrace that. I think they may have preferred there to be an overarching metaplot. Actually, there was, but it was completely hidden and optional, and the hints to it that they found were pretty subtle. I think they may have liked things better if I'd started off with a main story to begin with.
I've had that too. I thought about this a lot because I figured it should have worked- I made a whole continent for them to roam free in, but the campaign died out pretty quick.
I think that in my case I didn't provide enough hooks for the players- they had no investment in the region, or the NPCs in it, and weren't driven enough to go out and seek their own fortune. They needed adventure hooks- optional ones, I think it's essential that most are optional- but interesting hooks to lure them into action.
Unfortunately, some players never did start setting their own goals- half I think just followed the others' lead. Twas a great lead though, a dragonborn won a fiefdom and steadily built it up in the name of Bane (it was an evil campaign). He multiclassed to paladin from fighter! It amazed me! Most players don't do that on their own.
I want as open a world as possible, but I haven't successfully made a completely open world that will engage the players- I still need adventure lures like bounties and treasure maps to get them out there. So much potential though! Endless potential!
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Basically, I noticed that 4E D&D was tabletop WoW and tried to embrace that.
WoW heavily influenced 4e, for better or worse. I think for better: it really fires on all pistons in some ways, but to do so it had to give up certain other things. It's more focused now.
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and honestly the players did not seem to like it that much
A friend ran a completely open ended short thieves campaign. We went to a town, the thieves guild recruited us, and the rest was up to us. They sent us on missions and there was politics and intrigue... the problem was we didn't care. The DM didn't invest us in any of the variety of NPCs he'd created- he'd just assumed we'd interact with them, when really I ignored most. His campaign only lasted 4 sessions :(
I wanted to do missions because it seemed like the only thing worth doing- I didn't know who these people were or whether my character had reason to befriend ANYONE. He just wanted some money to rebuild his lost fortune (gambling). The majority of the world wasn't relevant to the character so he ignored it- it was distracting and annoyed him.
I really hate that because his campaign had a lot of potential and I'd love for him to be able to modify it in a way that made it work- possibly with a hybrid approach where he integrated quests and rewards to get the ball rolling and invest the players and characters.
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