[The Secret Lives of Serial Killers] Ronnies feedback
Paolo D.:
It's true that, probably, a lot of people wouldn't enjoy this game (staying at the table after the "turning point" or not), maybe me neither.
But: we should also remind that, mostly in northern Europe, a lot of people play and design games based on the principle of "hiding some rules". See for example jeepforms like Fat man down and Previous occupants*. I know a couple of guys who would probably like this game.
* (but also, they hide some rules, they don't hide "what the game is about", so maybe we are still on a virgin land in roleplaying games...)
Nathan P.:
Good job, Willow. I'm a big fan of secret knowledge in games, and this pushes it to an extreme. I think there's an interesting question here about whether it's still a worthwhile game to play if everyone does know about the turn? And, if so, if there's some way to choose (whether on the part of the Victim/Sunshine or perhaps Killer/Recluse) which way it will go in the final scene. Which could take it out of gimmick territory. This isn't to say I think the game is all a gimmick (it's not), but the "sudden reveal into something horrible" is so easy to critique as one, it may be worth considering how to get out of that zone in a way that preserves that core considerations of the game.
Also, for Sunshine Boulevard, it could be presented as something to be used with any of a number of "rules-light" or heavily narrative-based games/resolution systems that are considered easily "hackable" - Archipelago II and Lady Blackbird come to mind. Or (Ron, this one's for you) do it with Wushu.
Ron Edwards:
Hi everyone,
1. At last, something worthwhile to do with Wushu.
2. Anyway, I want to clarify a bit about my first post. Specifically, the line in the game text and my personal agreement with it that the game should not be played. The fact that it is currently playable and with, I think, some changes along what we've discussed here, could be even more so, does not change that basic observation and judgment.
To clarify my clarification, I am not telling anyone what to do. Nor am I saying that the input about how one might actually play it is wasted time. But to say, "Oh noes, we have to make this less abusive," is missing the point as I see it. Perhaps it's my own issues cropping up, but as I see it, the nastiness of what the two people do to the third, in playing this game, is no worse than the nastiness represented by standard, illusionist practice as promulgated, praised, and exemplified in all those "Secrets of the Gamemaster" books and literally thousands of adventure modules. It's no worse because it's the same thing.
3. Back in 1994 or so, Greg Costikyan wrote a game that was published by Hogshead Publishing that was intended to be a deconstructionist slam on the disparity between real-life values and those displayed in the most widespread trend in role-playing. Which is to say, the difference between being a person at all and a repulsive psychopath. He presented it by taking the role-playing values to the extreme and effectively, calling out gamer culture on two things: (i) how grotesque and vile their behavior was via their characters, and (ii) what pussies they were for not owning up to it and taking it all the way in-game. Violence as a game was built to amplify (ii) to the max and thus bring (i) into the foreground, out of denial. My take on it was that it wasn't intended to be played so much as to prompt the reader to recoil from how vicious and nasty it was, and then make them reflect upon why the very same acts were somehow OK when dressed up with orcs and vampires.
Oh look! It's available at Greg's site for free: Violence: The Role-Playing Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed. The published version also included a short piece called Power/Kill by John Tynes, now available partnered with Puppetland, which approached the same idea a little differently, so check that out too when you get a chance.
I respect the points made in these games. However - and this is pure personal take - I think Violence lacked draw to play when taken at face value, the kind that would suck people into confronting the point as strongly as they might, even upon reading. In other words, instead of saying, "Yuck, I would never play this game, holy shit, I do play this game in our Shadowrun campaign!", it's easy to say, "Look, ultra-violence, lots of swearing, good thing I don't play like that" and miss the point. Costikyan clearly wrote it out of disgust and rage at what the White Wolf and the dungeoneering scene were (and are) about, but although the emotions are there on the page, the piece as I see it stands more as an artifact of his emotions rather than a highly likely gut-punch to the reader.
4. Ian, I totally agree with you that our hobby subculture is full of guys who deeply identify with the male protagonists of Shine, Benny & Joon, Don Juan DeMarco, and similar films. That's another reason why I really like this game. I hope some of them read it and maybe grab a clue. Not that they are actually serial killers in disguise, but that their self-image as reinforced by these films needs some fresh air.
Best, Ron
stefoid:
So is it a RPG, LARP (two people roleplaying at roleplaying and the third a kind of prop), or something else?
Callan S.:
I think the question to ask as an author is at what point have I ceased to satirise a certain practice and am instead just literally practicing it and promoting it's practice?
Why is there going to be any gut punch? I mean clearly you can get humans to march other humans into ovens, if you normalise the practice enough. There's only going to be a gut punch here if you already subscribe to the philosophy that it sucks. I've heard accounts of guys who, without prior notice of the practice, shoot a new player under the table with a paint gun, so they know what it's like when their character was hit by a bullet. There will be no gut punch for these people. The only gut punch will be for those who already subscribe to the idea this sucks. This either perpetuates the practice supposedly satirised, or simply speaks to an echo chamber.
I just see this as another document that normalises this particular practice (and that document being promoted here).
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