[The Secret Lives of Serial Killers] Ronnies feedback
Callan S.:
Devon,
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"Real life boobs", lol. Anyway I'm not particularly shocked or offended by this either
Well, that's possibly the issue - in the other thread you talk about your group and what your group handles, etc. Here your literally taking your own sense of shock or offense like it's some sort of relevant benchmark. Like, if you can eat peanuts, that guy over there will have no problem eating peanuts either. So you'll sprinkle some into his food because hey, your not bothered by them.
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Unwanted physical contact. Yes, emotions and feelings are important, but how much can someone really get to YOUR emotions and feelings through a character?
This isn't 100% through character only. I gave a paintball example before to show an outside of character element parralel to an in character element.
Do you want to say the interaction is 100% in character, particularly in chapter five? Right now your treating it as true it's all character and then moving on to a second question. I'd like to question the idea all interaction is solely via character.
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As probably the most hardcore, full-immersion roleplayer I know, even I think that the damage that can be done this way is very limited.
It depends. You can't lose a limb twice, I'll grant.
Eero Tuovinen:
It occurs to me that the so-called "pervasive" larping that has been something of a trend in the Nordic countries in recent years faces many of the same issues Willow's game here does. Pervasive larps are games that forgo an explicit ritual space for the game, preferring to mix the game with reality by playing in urban settings, having players interact with outsiders as their characters and so on; an oft-used example is that a player's character might give confession in a real church to a real priest as part of play. I remember how we had some pretty strident discussions here in Finland about this topic when Prosopopeia (an infamous Swedish pervasive larp from whence the above example originates) was current; the issue with pervasive larping, as some of us perceived it then, was that it objectifies both players and innocent outsiders by instructing players to mislead others and falsely represent themselves in public. Looking at the topic now, I find a somewhat current English treatise on the problem in Markus Montola's pervasive larp design blog here - pretty interesting read, that.
What I personally took home from these discussions on pervasive gaming was that it's very important to me as a game designer that I respect the personal autonomy of players, who participate in the game consensually, and I respect the social contract in general by delineating game spaces and acting responsibly as a member of the community. This stance is no magic wand when it comes to drawing the line between appropriate and inappropriate games within the game group, though; that task remains with the social mores of the game group and their shared expectations of where the limits lie. I can totally believe that there are groups out there for whom Sunset Boulevard moves in an entirely conventional space; many gamers think that everything is kosher as long as the form of the content is respected so that the game remains in the realms of verbal interaction. The mere fact that the game presents itself under false premises to one of the players is not by itself a breach of trust when the group has established that this level of power asymmetry is expected and accepted. In this regard the ugly surprise in playing Sunset Boulevard doesn't differ much from the ugly surprise of playing D&D with a kill-happy GM; in both cases the experience is something that well might disturb you in a non-good way if you came to it cold, without the prerequisite social context.
The reason that Sunset Boulevard reminds me of those larp discussions from years ago is that the tone of argument is sort of similar. Callan's penultimate post is pretty insightful in this regard, I think - the issue largely is about what a "game" is supposed to be socially, and how much weight something being a "game" has when it comes to justifying socially disturbing behavior. I personally was (and am) stridently against the sort of social irresponsibility displayed by creators of pervasive larps who argue that the nature of their activity as a harmless game or valuable art justifies shenanigans; in this case I'm not feeling myself nearly as moralistic, as although I personally dislike the idea of abusing trust among my friends in this manner, that's just because playing this game would be an abuse of trust for us: were this different for some other group, then it'd be no skin off my nose the way those annoyingly public larps are. In this way I'm willing to chalk this one up as a matter of taste insofar as abstract philosophical arguments go.
Devon Oratz:
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Here your literally taking your own sense of shock or offense like it's some sort of relevant benchmark. Like, if you can eat peanuts, that guy over there will have no problem eating peanuts either. So you'll sprinkle some into his food because hey, your not bothered by them.
My bad for thinking my perspective was relevant, I guess. Although, I am starting to get some really serious mixed signals from the Forge.
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It depends. You can't lose a limb twice, I'll grant.
Could you explain what this even means in this context? Are you implying that I have "lost a limb" in some metaphorical sense?
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Do you want to say the interaction is 100% in character, particularly in chapter five? Right now your treating it as true it's all character and then moving on to a second question. I'd like to question the idea all interaction is solely via character.
I know that with my group no one broke character. Every word out of the PCs' mouths was roleplaying. Every word out of the facilitator's mouth was narration.
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It occurs to me that the so-called "pervasive" larping that has been something of a trend in the Nordic countries in recent years faces many of the same issues Willow's game here does. Pervasive larps are games that forgo an explicit ritual space for the game, preferring to mix the game with reality by playing in urban settings, having players interact with outsiders as their characters and so on; an oft-used example is that a player's character might give confession in a real church to a real priest as part of play. I remember how we had some pretty strident discussions here in Finland about this topic when Prosopopeia (an infamous Swedish pervasive larp from whence the above example originates) was current; the issue with pervasive larping, as some of us perceived it then, was that it objectifies both players and innocent outsiders by instructing players to mislead others and falsely represent themselves in public. Looking at the topic now, I find a somewhat current English treatise on the problem in Markus Montola's pervasive larp design blog here - pretty interesting read, that.
I have actually tried to write and run this kind of game here, in America with absolutely no knowledge that it existed overseas. I ran it twice at college (when I was a junior and a senior, respectively) as a ~one week game (but entirely pervasive for that period of time). I've actually rewritten it for being used outside of a college setting, and in a longer format, but haven't been able to playtest it yet.
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The reason that Sunset Boulevard reminds me of those larp discussions from years ago is that the tone of argument is sort of similar. Callan's penultimate post is pretty insightful in this regard, I think - the issue largely is about what a "game" is supposed to be socially, and how much weight something being a "game" has when it comes to justifying socially disturbing behavior. I personally was (and am) stridently against the sort of social irresponsibility displayed by creators of pervasive larps who argue that the nature of their activity as a harmless game or valuable art justifies shenanigans; in this case I'm not feeling myself nearly as moralistic, as although I personally dislike the idea of abusing trust among my friends in this manner, that's just because playing this game would be an abuse of trust for us: were this different for some other group, then it'd be no skin off my nose the way those annoyingly public larps are. In this way I'm willing to chalk this one up as a matter of taste insofar as abstract philosophical arguments go.
The church example specifically does seem a bit distasteful. I am not at all religious, but blaspheming makes me uncomfortable and giving an "in-character confession" strikes me as a blasphemous thing to do. So hey, we've found something that "offends" me! Except that I wouldn't be outraged that someone else was doing this, I just wouldn't do it myself.
Anyway, I'm not sure how hardcore you could be about playing a pervasive LARP without risking, like, arrest. Ultimately, I don't see the analogy to Secret Lives. Everyone was aware that they were playing SOME GAME after all.
Ron Edwards:
I'm stepping in as moderator.
Callan, you're being a pain in the ass. You've made your point, but now you're merely aggravating Devon. Poke, poke, poke, the classic Callan dialogue which consists of someone trying to answer you, but merely giving you more openings for poke, poke, poke. Having made your point, and now that it's there for anyone to read and judge, give it a rest for a while. And this is the big thing: there is no reason on this earth to keep giving Devon the message that he did a bad thing by playtesting the game. Your analogies with peanuts and tits and all the rest of it are simple and straightforward personal insults toward hm in this context, and I'm stomping it down now. Should have done that last week - my apologies for that, Devon.
And Devon - do me the favor of dropping these low-level hints about the Forge in general, and any of this sarcasm like "Please excuse me for thinking my input is relevant." Enough, please.
For what it's worth, I'm working up big posts for all the feedback threads at the moment and we can get back to the real work of this forum.
Best, Ron
Thunder_God:
I found this interesting.
I also found the link to Vampire interesting.
Also, the whole discussion on what constitutes a game is fascinating. Personally, I think there is and isn't a game here. The analogy to the pervasive LARP with the confession I felt was very apt. The LARPer is playing a game, the priest, and passersby who buy in, are not playing a game. Those truly are their feelings, in a way I think can't be said of people playing a game, regardless of how immersive the games are (there are plenty of emotions generated by games, but I think there's a fine distinction).
The facilitator and killer are playing a game, perhaps playing a prank. The "Victim Player" is a pawn. He's a marionnette. He's not really playing a game, you could omit the word "player" and merely describe him as a victim. A victim for a prank, perhaps, but I don't think when you play a prank on someone, or a practical joke, they truly are participants. In my experience, that's how those who play the pranks on them present it, especially to authority figures after the fact (school, armed services, to teachers and officers after the fact, "We were only playing a game, you didn't suffer, right, right?")
I think it has merit both as something to read and mull over, and as a discussion opener, as seen here. I probably wouldn't want to participate in a play of this, in any role.
I do think the suggestion of "pulling apart the veil", before the final scene, on the victim, so they'll see how things are and decide if and how they want to continue has merit (I wonder if this is just for the worth of seeing light dawn, but before they are truly hurt/angry). But like others said, the game may explode before, if you truly do not take heed of what the victim suggests for narration. I'd consider (insidiously?) to incorporate what they say, or in normal current SG practice, have the Killer incorporate and build up on what the victim suggests, and slowly incorporate less and less.
I do know if I played this with my girlfriend, as the victim, she would be really mad at me. Like, really.
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