[Anathema] Ronnies feedback
Ron Edwards:
Anathema by Devon Oratz wins a Ronny! This one gets the Sheer Guts award for this round, which given some of the other entries, is really saying something. I kind of like the idea of someone questioning Death at the end of a session of Danse Macabre, and Death says, "What, didn't you read Anathema?" With Death's Head last time, and The Secret Lives of Serial Killers and Anathema this time - what was that J. G. Ballard title ... yes, "The Atrocity Exhibition." Exactly. I'll also cop to the fact that the sheer audacity of playing genocidal maniacs while admitting we're doing it went a long way toward the award. Sure, the Balance admits to no responsibility and gets to be all Zen-like and greater-good about it, but no such excuses will ultimately hold for the Shrouds.
Still, gothy scary booga booga ... haven't we been here before? Thankfully, no - Anathema is definitely not a White Wolf clone, and in fact, strikes me as an anti-White Wolf design with a particularly powerful punch. I tell you what makes the difference for me: the long-term play but with thematic ending standards for characters. You're pretty clear about this in the text - you don't want pretension and flouncing around, you want Premise (in my jargon) and you want it raw.
My plan is that I'm really going to take this at your word and give you the business about it. What I have in mind is to strip away the last clinging, smelly birth-membranes of White Wolf from your design. It seems clear to me that you're almost out of them all by yourself, based on exactly what I just wrote about above, but let's get the rest of the way.
Two other things before I go on
1. Do you want me to go into why I think the term "angel" is appropriate? This has nothing to do with anything in the game text or how it might be written; it's a pure geekoid terms-issue for me. So if you don't want to get into that, that's no big deal and we can stay with talking about the game. But if you're interested, I can tell you why.
2. There is one thing I have to deal with up-front. I may be mis-reading you, but I'm getting the impression that comments about previous systems and your system are bugging you, or at least you feel the need to defend yourself against them. Therefore, speaking only for my own posts, I want to clarify what I mean - and don't mean - by mentioning other games in reference to your or anyone's game mechanics.
When I say, "Your mechanic X is like the thing in that game from 15 years ago," I do not mean that you knew that game, took that mechanic, and popped it into your game. Nor do I mean that you even encountered that game and incorporated it as knowledge and more recently applied that knowledge. As it happens I don't think either of these is a bad thing anyway, but still, it's not what I mean. What I mean is that RPGs exhibit remarkably distinct families of techniques and techniques combinations, and design ranges from staying right smack in the comfort zone of an established family, all the way to founding a whole new zone. I find it valuable to talk in these terms, saying things like "Your mechanic X comes from the thing in that game from 15 years ago," and although the "comes from" part may look like "you did this, you did that" in the sense of where you got the idea, that's strictly an artifact of our existing vocabulary for these things. I'm saying that the thing entered the design space, culturally speaking, at that time. Whether you invented it yourself out of your own experiences, or whether you learned it from that very game, or whether you acquired it indirectly through games that are in that same techniques-family, isn't what I'm after. Nor is any such comment supposed to diminish or subordinate your design, or you as a designer, relative to others, to the contrary actually.
Here's an example: Vindication. From the text,
Quote
A GM should never give a point of Will to a PC for Vindication unless the entire gaming group - including the GM, but he is not the final authority on this - seems to feel that the character genuinely Vindicated their nature. This should not be something that players are fudging just to get more points: it is an important part of the game.
When I say, "This technique entered RPG texts with my rules for gaining and losing Humanity in Sorcerer (1996/2001) and found very deep expression in the Sincerity die in My Life with Master (2003)," this is not saying that you knew these games, or if you did, took the Vindication rule from them (again, which would itself be no bad thing just to keep that point clear). It means that you are designing at least in part in a similar creative space as I did and Paul did, and that the success of the technique in these games speaks well for the potential success of Vindication in Anathema. It also means that your game has, for lack of a better word, kin which at least for some, is a good thing: it helps them to understand that they are not alone in a howling wilderness of stereotyped fanboys of poorly-designed games which score high merely in terms of identity politics; and it helps orient them in terms of what other techniques may be available for comparison and possible use.
OK, I said my piece about that, and so, onwards.
3. I am psyched about my character!
Combat 3, Perception 2, Manipulation 2, Resistance 3
Died by suicide, therefore primary Dominion is Despair; one of the Kindly
Despair 3, War 2, Misfortune 2, Apathy 1
Time since death: 9 minutes ago
Memory fragments: a happy occurrence, a job, an important lover, a child or pet, a sibling or close friend
Anathema 0, Will 10
The above are merely the mechanics. I have a pretty good idea about the person and the story, which specifies the fragments and kind of ties it all together, not included here.
Quick question: I rolled 6 twice for my memory fragments - does this mean I just move on to the next roll (as I did, hence five fragments total), or does it mean I re-roll that time until I get a new value (hence I would have six different fragments total)?
Thinking about what the character is like and how things may go, I drew this diagram. The bottom part, Rebellion, is the trickiest. With Vindication, you do it or you don't, so that's easy, but with Rebellion, if you do it, then Dissolution threatens, and if you abstain, then you start losing Will. The non-rebellious, obedient Shroud kills and kills preferred victims as much as possible along with avoided ones (non-avoided in this case), perhaps failing to outstrip Will Death, or perhaps one day achieving Satori; the rebellious Shroud keeps Will high but will sooner or later find the Furies breathing down its neck. The text calls it a Bang or a Whimper (with the Whimper being Satori, i think); it reminds me of the catch-phrase from Jared Sorensen's Schism: will you die on your feet or on your knees? Huh! - ultimately, the question faced by the Shroud is the same one faced by every single one of its victims.
The Kindly are in a really tough spot: for them, killing Avoided Victims and abstaining from Rebellion are practically synonymous, which I suppose hits them with a double whammy -2 Will; and since they don't have Preferred Victims, they basically have to kill their way through hordes of "anyone else" in order to increase Will; and their Rebellion is essentially a flat refusal to kill. The more I look the three types over, the more I like how distinctive their moral dilemmas are.
A game you might like with some similarities, although by no means the same specific ethical crisis, is one of my historical favorites, The Whispering Vault.
GM stuff
I think the current text displays way too much GM micro-management! This is a system which really throws ethical crisis into the players' laps, to be expressed in striking form with extremely visual, extremely powerful characters, regarding an issue of great weight. I think that the whole "story guy" role of the GM can simply slide away, letting this particular group's story emerge from stated actions, existing mechanics, and flat-out consequences without a guiding hand to smooth, pace, or manage it in any way.
The list of such things includes ...
i) Setting difficulty levels with multiple dials, as discussed above
ii) GM permission for gaining Will for killing a preferred victim
iii) forcing the choice between gaining Will and risking Dissolution (I mean, the choice is already there ...)
iv) capping Will changes per unit play time
So what do I think the Anathema GM should do? Well, it has a lot to do with the games Sorcerer, Dust Devils, and Dogs in the Vineyard - the GM makes up and plays highly active, stressed NPCs, in situations which are full of ethical tension and unstable relationships. Also, less centrally, opens and closes scenes, accelerates in-game time when nothing important is happening, and other logistic matters. We can talk more about this if you want.
Meaty meat
The above point is related to my notions about one kind of desirable, possibly nigh-inevitable conflict in playing Anathema: genuine, consequential, and emotionally riveting conflicts between the player-characters. I say, "I kill this guy," and you say, "The hell you will." Or you say, "I kill all of them," and I say, "The hell you will." I am not talking about posturing and being all thespian about you being Kindly and me being Violent; I'm talking about story right here and now, when the players feel that each character simply will not stand for what the other wants, and is willing to do anything about it. Like Vindication, this isn't something one artifically inserts into play. Such scenes may in fact be a key part of Satori and, obviously, Dissolution.
Another major content-point concerns the Furies, and what seems to me to be a kind of trap-door that opens under the otherwise flawless ending-structure of the game. Beating the Furies? Becoming kind of an anti-Balance super-squad or something like that? It reads to me like a gamer-out, a "Hey, you can keep playing forever if you can do this" option, instead the raw truth of every other orienting text in the game: you are going down, forever, and the question is how - and what that will mean. As I see it, the Furies may do better to be like Satori - when the truly appropriate time comes, they show up and kill the character, full stop.
Resolution and related mechanics
i) You mentioned that you were interested in my comments about difficulty levels (thresholds) vs. difficulty modifiers in the Air Patrol thread, so let's look at the way you did it here. The Anathema variant is only a little messy, and the question is whether that's productive (i.e. fun not fiddly). So, dice number varies according to Ability, 50% success per die, with four modifiers. They are: spending Anathema increases the number of dice (Killer Competence), spending Will re-rolls all failed dice, the GM can decree more or less dice to roll, and the GM can bump the die success value anywhere from 2-6 to 6 only.
I suppose it's not surprising to you that I think removing the final modifier is a good idea. I think it simply spins an additional dial in the mechanics without adding content to the concept of immediate, situational difficulty. I'm not really sold on the first GM modifier as written either; as I see it, the best application might be for the GM to add or subtract dice only from his own rolls to express situational difficulty, getting exactly the same effect of harder/easier while sparing the player all the hassling about what he gets to roll this time and how to read it.
To go the other way, and to be quite radical, it's possible to eliminate all GM dice rolling entirely and simply set Thresholds for everything, hitting NPCs and defending vs. them included, and that's the sole modifier from that side of the table, full stop.
ii) Of the three modifiers, Anathema units seem most significant here. I'm thinking in terms of playing the above character, or maybe any character: absent specific ethical concerns of the moment, I plan to kill frequently, if not indiscriminately I suppose, and keep Anathema high enough that I can pretty much always double my Ability dice. As long as Anathema is below 20 or so, and assuming that a good fun scene calls for multiple rolls, I can see how a certain economy might set in, as I might not be able to kill my way up high enough fast enough and will have to pick and choose when I "Anathemize" my rolls. How about above that? It doesn't seem unlikely that I might have my character kill dozens, if not hundreds, of victims at once when I can. Is it part of the vision of the game that I might have 100 or 200 Anathema going? I'm not saying that's bad, not at all - I'm only curious to see if I'm interpreting correctly.
ii) I am not convinced by the text's claim that the game doesn't feature combat much. It seems to me it definitely would, even without the "dust'em up" bad guys you provide later in the rules. But rare or common, the key feature of complicated conflict ("combat" most often) for me is the ordering of announced actions and outcomes. I think the current traditional, fully random, stop-motion initiative system is inadequate for the passion-driven, intensely personal aspects of combat in this game. I am thinking about all sorts of alternatives: the Action Point system in my proto-game Mongrel, for instance, seems well suited; or some kind of all-at-once rolling and retroactive ordering along the lines of Zero and Sorcerer, or more complex, In a Wicked Age.
4. This may sound very strange, but I think perception, as a character ability or action, does not rate a whole Ability of its own for this game. The single thing it specifically does concerns memory, and that function can be given some kind of roll unique to itself rather than being a character Ability. Otherwise it's the same-old, same-old "notice things" deal which is remarkably non-functional in most role-playing. Now, for all I know, you have some kind of nigh-unique skill or set of experiences with perception rolls that is incredibly fun, and if so, let me know what it is, and I'll drop the subject. But instead, if like me, you have struggled with getting things to happen even when perception rolls aren't made, or found scenes jammed up by who-notices-whom instead of getting to the point, and, if like me, you have often simply bypassed the whole thing and flatly said who notices whom, then maybe Perception can simply be jettisoned.
Whew! That was a damned hard feedback post to write, as much as I enjoyed writing each bit individually. This game is kind of the opposite of Murder: A Game About Crows, in which all the instructions are original and finely tuned to what the game is about, but I could make neither head nor tail of what exactly to do at any single moment of play (Icomments coming up soon). Whereas I could play Anathema right now, hands down, line up and let me GM you baby ... but the instructions have those last membranes on them.
Devon, let me know what you think. And congratulations - this thing, man, is really something.
Best, Ron
Devon Oratz:
Wow, that is some feedback, alright. : )
My response is going to be multi-part, sorry. If you are feeling like it, you can edit all of my posts together into one giant post. Or not. But I have awful impulse control when it comes to
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1. Do you want me to go into why I think the term "angel" is appropriate? This has nothing to do with anything in the game text or how it might be written; it's a pure geekoid terms-issue for me. So if you don't want to get into that, that's no big deal and we can stay with talking about the game. But if you're interested, I can tell you why.
I'll admit it, I'm curious. Why is the term angel appropriate? (I felt torn about using it myself. And I do know...a bit about angels as well.)
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2. There is one thing I have to deal with up-front. I may be mis-reading you, but I'm getting the impression that comments about previous systems and your system are bugging you, or at least you feel the need to defend yourself against them. Therefore, speaking only for my own posts, I want to clarify what I mean - and don't mean - by mentioning other games in reference to your or anyone's game mechanics.
When I say, "Your mechanic X is like the thing in that game from 15 years ago," I do not mean that you knew that game, took that mechanic, and popped it into your game. Nor do I mean that you even encountered that game and incorporated it as knowledge and more recently applied that knowledge. As it happens I don't think either of these is a bad thing anyway, but still, it's not what I mean. What I mean is that RPGs exhibit remarkably distinct families of techniques and techniques combinations, and design ranges from staying right smack in the comfort zone of an established family, all the way to founding a whole new zone. I find it valuable to talk in these terms, saying things like "Your mechanic X comes from the thing in that game from 15 years ago," and although the "comes from" part may look like "you did this, you did that" in the sense of where you got the idea, that's strictly an artifact of our existing vocabulary for these things. I'm saying that the thing entered the design space, culturally speaking, at that time. Whether you invented it yourself out of your own experiences, or whether you learned it from that very game, or whether you acquired it indirectly through games that are in that same techniques-family, isn't what I'm after. Nor is any such comment supposed to diminish or subordinate your design, or you as a designer, relative to others, to the contrary actually.
I totally get where you are coming from. I think it is not entirely defensiveness on my part, but a kind of finicky factual accuracy that causes me to pipe up whenever my mechanics' similarity to mechanic x/y is even tangentially mentioned. To be honest, I'm not even DEFENDING myself when I say "I didn't rip off x, I ripped off y". This is something I do whenever ANYONE says that anything was influenced by anything else. It's not even limited to my own work. I just feel that order of precedence is important. If anyone else mistakes who or what ripped off what, I will try to refrain the urge to open one of my six mouths and sing the song that ends the world.
Anyway, I get you loud and clear.
Devon Oratz:
The end of the above trail-off should read "...when it comes to not responding piecemeal at the same speed I am thinking". No, sadly I did not do that on purpose, but illustrative example nonetheless.
Devon Oratz:
Quote from: 'Ron'
Combat 3, Perception 2, Manipulation 2, Resistance 3
Died by suicide, therefore primary Dominion is Despair; one of the Kindly
Despair 3, War 2, Misfortune 2, Apathy 1
Time since death: 9 minutes ago
Memory fragments: a happy occurrence, a job, an important lover, a child or pet, a sibling or close friend
Anathema 0, Will 10
* You should have six more points of Abilities. I think you may have missed the second paragraph of Page 9, which reads:
Quote from: 'Anathema'
In this same moment, the player can distribute 6 additional Ability Points between their Shroud‘s Combat, Perception, Manipulation, and Resistance, as the Shroud‘s Abilities are more formidable than those of its Husk. These points can increase any of these Abilities above 5, however each point of Ability score above the fifth costs two Ability Points.
One thing I'd like to add is a character creation flow chart to make these crucial six extra points harder to miss. Good idea. Bad idea?
Also, I think you meant *Atrophy and not *Apathy, although the idea of being able to "Apathy" someone to death is, in a word, awesome. : )
* Additionally, as a suicide, your starting Will is only 7! Page 11, first paragraph under Table 2, last sentence, italics.
Quote from: 'Anathema'
In terms of their formidable supernatural powers, Shrouds that have newly returned are as weak as kittens. A ?new? Shroud begins with Anathema 0, Will 10, and the Abilities and Dominions discussed above. Shrouds who have Despair as their primary Dominion only start with Will 7.
I don't blame you for missing it. These probably aren't the most organized rules ever (writing a game in 24 hrs. does that) and you have a lot of games on your mind.
Quote from: 'Ron'
Quick question: I rolled 6 twice for my memory fragments - does this mean I just move on to the next roll (as I did, hence five fragments total), or does it mean I re-roll that time until I get a new value (hence I would have six different fragments total)?
I am going to make myself answer any mechanical design question you come up with under the assumption it is functional and not rhetorical because anything that is not perfectly clear should be made so ASAP.
Good question (although it took me a while to puzzle out what you meant. It means you remember ANOTHER specimen of that type of memory. Example: another, different happy occurrence. The obvious exception would be 12 (your death) in which case you should roll again. I will add this in the next time I work on the game. Making a note to self now.
Quote from: 'Ron'
Thinking about what the character is like and how things may go, I drew this diagram. The bottom part, Rebellion, is the trickiest. With Vindication, you do it or you don't, so that's easy, but with Rebellion, if you do it, then Dissolution threatens, and if you abstain, then you start losing Will. The non-rebellious, obedient Shroud kills and kills preferred victims as much as possible along with avoided ones (non-avoided in this case), perhaps failing to outstrip Will Death, or perhaps one day achieving Satori; the rebellious Shroud keeps Will high but will sooner or later find the Furies breathing down its neck. The text calls it a Bang or a Whimper (with the Whimper being Satori, i think); it reminds me of the catch-phrase from Jared Sorensen's Schism: will you die on your feet or on your knees? Huh! - ultimately, the question faced by the Shroud is the same one faced by every single one of its victims.
That diagram is the best thing ever. I want to paste it on walls everywhere with absolutely no context.
Actually, as I was writing it, I intended for Satori to be the bang, which is actually an unusually positive and naive viewpoint for me. In hindsight, I am glad I left which was which unspecified. I could see strong arguments for both. Also, all good observations.
Quote from: 'Ron'
I think the current text displays way too much GM micro-management! This is a system which really throws ethical crisis into the players' laps, to be expressed in striking form with extremely visual, extremely powerful characters, regarding an issue of great weight. I think that the whole "story guy" role of the GM can simply slide away, letting this particular group's story emerge from stated actions, existing mechanics, and flat-out consequences without a guiding hand to smooth, pace, or manage it in any way.
i) Setting difficulty levels with multiple dials, as discussed above
ii) GM permission for gaining Will for killing a preferred victim
iii) forcing the choice between gaining Will and risking Dissolution (I mean, the choice is already there ...)
iv) capping Will changes per unit play time
So what do I think the Anathema GM should do? Well, it has a lot to do with the games Sorcerer, Dust Devils, and Dogs in the Vineyard - the GM makes up and plays highly active, stressed NPCs, in situations which are full of ethical tension and unstable relationships. Also, less centrally, opens and closes scenes, accelerates in-game time when nothing important is happening, and other logistic matters. We can talk more about this if you want.
I am firmly in the traditionalist camp as far as my views on GMing go and that will probably color my response. With that said: could you explain 1 a bit more? I'm not sure I know what you mean.
I can agree that 2 is extraneous, especially since 2 is just a subset of 4. I think that 4 is important because someone should have a handle on the throttle just so the game doesn't burn out in a single session. (I understand that single session games are not *weird* here, but Anathema simply isn't meant to be one.) I think a GM can make situational decisions that the mechanics can't. For instance, if a Lost Shroud who really hates the KKK blows up a Klan meeting, they do not get +32 Will.
+32 Will would break the dramatic mechanics of the game. I think that is the importance of two. I am open to ways to elegantly put that in the purview of the mechanics rather than the GM.
I think that the GM's most important roll is 3, but I think the GM does that by playing one particular NPC, namely, The Balance. What should be explicitly in the text but probably isn't, is that the single most important thing the GM does in Anathema is to play as The Balance.
Devon Oratz:
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Another major content-point concerns the Furies, and what seems to me to be a kind of trap-door that opens under the otherwise flawless ending-structure of the game. Beating the Furies? Becoming kind of an anti-Balance super-squad or something like that? It reads to me like a gamer-out, a "Hey, you can keep playing forever if you can do this" option, instead the raw truth of every other orienting text in the game: you are going down, forever, and the question is how - and what that will mean. As I see it, the Furies may do better to be like Satori - when the truly appropriate time comes, they show up and kill the character, full stop.
This warrants thinking about. So I shall think about it. A lot.
But I included that "option" (which is, incidentally, an optional rule) not out of a desire to please power-gamers who want to, as you put it, "Step Up". I included it because, thematically, for me, perhaps the most moving trope of all is the ability, occasionally to punch Cthulhu in the face. I think the darker it is before the dawn, the more a happy ending has any meaning at all.
But like I said, I'll think about it.
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I suppose it's not surprising to you that I think removing the final modifier is a good idea.
You're absolutely right. I would argue it being necessary for more complex games, but Anathema is a game designed in one day. So I'm quite willing to apply some K.I.S.S here.
The idea of giving only the GM the ability to add/subtract dice is interesting. I'll think about it.
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ii) Of the three modifiers, Anathema units seem most significant here. I'm thinking in terms of playing the above character, or maybe any character: absent specific ethical concerns of the moment, I plan to kill frequently, if not indiscriminately I suppose, and keep Anathema high enough that I can pretty much always double my Ability dice. As long as Anathema is below 20 or so, and assuming that a good fun scene calls for multiple rolls, I can see how a certain economy might set in, as I might not be able to kill my way up high enough fast enough and will have to pick and choose when I "Anathemize" my rolls. How about above that? It doesn't seem unlikely that I might have my character kill dozens, if not hundreds, of victims at once when I can. Is it part of the vision of the game that I might have 100 or 200 Anathema going? I'm not saying that's bad, not at all - I'm only curious to see if I'm interpreting correctly.
Yes 100+ Anathema is part of the vision of the game. Anathema is supposed to be spent mainly on activating Dominions, however. As written on page 13, Anathema for extra dice only works on "any action that a human could reasonably perform". For Shrouds, that is quite a limitation. Spending Will to reroll all dice that failed, after the fact, is probably something I see as being a bigger deal, mechanically.
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ii) I am not convinced by the text's claim that the game doesn't feature combat much. It seems to me it definitely would, even without the "dust'em up" bad guys you provide later in the rules. But rare or common, the key feature of complicated conflict ("combat" most often) for me is the ordering of announced actions and outcomes. I think the current traditional, fully random, stop-motion initiative system is inadequate for the passion-driven, intensely personal aspects of combat in this game. I am thinking about all sorts of alternatives: the Action Point system in my proto-game Mongrel, for instance, seems well suited; or some kind of all-at-once rolling and retroactive ordering along the lines of Zero and Sorcerer, or more complex, In a Wicked Age.
I suppose it depends how much you consider "You roll six dice, I roll a die, and if you roll more successes a child dies" as "combat" or not. : P
Seriously, though, this is worth considering. I might make Initiative more complicated, I will probably not make it all that weird. The idea of Anathema somehow effecting initiative, perhaps by spending or bidding it, is what I'm contemplating now.
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4. This may sound very strange, but I think perception, as a character ability or action, does not rate a whole Ability of its own for this game. The single thing it specifically does concerns memory, and that function can be given some kind of roll unique to itself rather than being a character Ability. Otherwise it's the same-old, same-old "notice things" deal which is remarkably non-functional in most role-playing. Now, for all I know, you have some kind of nigh-unique skill or set of experiences with perception rolls that is incredibly fun, and if so, let me know what it is, and I'll drop the subject. But instead, if like me, you have struggled with getting things to happen even when perception rolls aren't made, or found scenes jammed up by who-notices-whom instead of getting to the point, and, if like me, you have often simply bypassed the whole thing and flatly said who notices whom, then maybe Perception can simply be jettisoned.
Okay, this is a good point.
But I think I just had a Eureka moment. Tell me if I'm talking out of my ass here but...what if Perception (in addition to the basic functions described above which, yes, I've had the same problems with as anyone, although I don't see "failing to notice someone" as being that big of a deal in Anathema, where, after all, you can just go kill someone else, turn into gas and phase through the door you could not find the key to, etcetera) Perception is used as the base stat for Initiative?
What if Initiative proceeds in order of Perception--and at the start of a turn, people can spend Anathema to increase Perception (hence, Initiative) on a one-for-one basis. I think it would at least solve the problem of Perception not doing much. Let me know how that sounds.
Anyway, am done. Thank you for the feedback. Like I said before, you gave me a lot to think about.
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