[D&D 4e] Combat and Reward Systems
Natespank:
I've given out treasure based on encounter level for a while now. I use this program:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/239461-random-treasure-generator-version-2-now-available.html
It's just the PHB1 and AV 1, but it's treated us well.
Natespank:
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What's the genre of magic in D&D these days? I mean to me, there seems all sorts of magic stuff in some handy pendent form one could make up. Pure teleportation back to a base and some sort of reviving magic circle there. Or it turns you to gas and it flies you back to a base, magic circle, etc. Or it just flies your body (back the way you came - hopefully no doors got closed (or perhaps the magic bashes your body against wooden doors until they split - lol! That'd be pretty hilarious!)). All of this actually seems pretty day to day as far as D&D magic goes?
I've tried 2 mechanics in my campaign to prevent character death.
1 a parrot cult that teleported the dead to the parrot
2 a mob of ghosts that would storm the island and recover the bodies of the dead- the dead PCs keep returning as ghosts on their ship, it's fun.
Strangely my players rebel against them- they feel that they should stay dead when they die. One player is strongly in favor of frequent TPKs that result in complete character turnover. They think I'm being too soft on them by saving their characters or preventing TPK.
The problem with constant character death is that there's no persistent PCs to tie the campaign together- it's just the story of a setting then. It takes a lot away from the game's continuity. I like how in Elfs the PCs don't usually die- they're usually just horribly embarrassed and left to wake up somewhere undignified :)
It's a weird conflict- they dislike character survival because it stinks of DM fiat and degrades the quality of the roleplaying- however, by swapping characters all the time it also degrades the roleplaying...
Obviously you can argue that I should just let them die. I just find the game a lot more interesting with persistent characters.
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I suspect trying to put fiction first...well, does just that! And fiction becomes more and more the end sought itself, rather than a means to an end.
I didn't think of it like that quite before. I had thought the FF hack was more of a simulationist hack- but in many ways it seems like it uses the fiction in a gamist way.
If you find a link for riddle of steel do let me know!
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There are lots of things to discuss there; the most relevant issue is probably why I don't think that 4E supports Step on Up play very well. Nate, let me know what you want to talk about and we'll go from there.
Well lets start there- how come 4e doesn't support Step on Up play very well? I mean, using standard encounters and treasure parcels it sure doesn't- but what about a campaign with an indifferent world of varying level? Or a megadungeon similar to Diablo or Torchlight?
Callan S.:
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Strangely my players rebel against them- they feel that they should stay dead when they die. One player is strongly in favor of frequent TPKs that result in complete character turnover. They think I'm being too soft on them by saving their characters or preventing TPK.
Ah, now I see it more!?
Perhaps they are trying to preserve the lose condition that actually makes play uncertain for them. I'd really try out that 'You get one shot at the treasure only' thing with them atleast a couple of times, see if they get that they have lost? And the 'ouch' of play has been preserved. That or I don't know what they on about? I'm hoping they are just trying to preserve a capacity to lose, because that makes it pretty simple and compatable. If you try the one chance only treasures (ooh, tell 'em up front, let 'em writhe in the knowledge...) it'd be great if you could tell us how it goes! :)
Natespank:
Gamed yesterday for a meager 5 hours; full group (1 DM, 3 players plus my girlfriend). They didn't much help her understand how to play, which was annoying, but my ex-girlfriend (another player) actually stepped up after a while and sort of coached her.
Changes Executed:
1- Regain 1 surge per one day's uninterrupted rest. An extended rest merely resets action points, dailies and freely heals you to full.
2- I allow players to roll either a d20 or 3d6 for most rolls (may force the 3d6 eventually).
3- I implemented a voting system for social skills: if the group votes somebody's argument to be excellent, +5 to the roll. If they vote it is horrible, -5 to the roll. This is a pretty big modifier. The vote ensures that, even if the players think an argument is retarded, if they need to preserve the fun they're able to- but for the vast majority of the time they voted "horrible" rather than "excellent."
4- Gave out "well-formed" quests on index cards: name of quest, required fame to undertake, specific objectives and other conditions (time), and specific reward.
5- Death mechanic- If you die from here on out, and stay dead, you randomly roll starting stats and your character options are limited to heroes of the fallen lands. The Players make too many new characters- limiting the creation options ought to make them stick with something. I think it's a case of the peanut butter dilemma.
6- Win/lose conditions. Sort of part of 4, they are able to succeed at a quest or fail at it. If they fail they don't get much by way of reward. A condition might be a time limit or something similar.
Results-
Infighting and Surges
2 party members are blatantly evil. Their hireling (good-aligned) priest tried to leave them (to make room for my gf's character) and keep the magic armor he'd won in a fight. The psion reacted by convincing the tavern orc that the priest was a vampire (she rolled 2 20s for bluff and diplomacy, wow), and her and the ranger attacked the priest, killing him. That psion has worked with that orc before to hunt "vampires" and the psion's actually getting a reputation as a vampire hunter of sorts in the region...
Our other PC is good. He attacked the orc, the other PCs, and tried to save the priest. A long fight ensued in which the good PC (a warden) was knocked unconscious by the other PCs and along the way lost half his healing surges. He awoke on another island and was convinced to cooperate with the group while they pursued one of their quests.
Normally their little fight would have lacked consequence, but now their defender was down half his surges and had an axe to grind against 2 other PCs. The quest they'd undertaken had approximately a 3 day time limit, so they didn't have time to heal up before departing.
Lots of chances to use social skill voting. I'm relieved to say that it helped prevent SOME stupid arguments from prevailing, and did help another to succeed- something that 4e mysteriously doesn't help out with on it's own...
Dungeon Crawling
To finish one quest they had to recover some mushrooms from a previous dungeon. Along the way the defender "accidentally" dropped the rope that held the psion while they crossed a deadly drop. The psion survived (backup rope), but could potentially have died- it was a huge drop. Nice.
I think party coherency will establish itself over time and necessity.
Later, they remembered an underwater region where some ghouls had attacked them and they had to flee. Armed with scrolls of underwater breathing they planned to attack the ghouls- however, the defender stated his healing surge total and refused to participate. He wanted to be in top form for the actual quest.
So, the surges mechanic is already affecting the game a lot.
Treasure Hunting
The quest was to recover the ruby sword from a shipwreck using underwater breathing and some exploration. They found a looted ship, followed a coin trail to an underwater cave and fought some lizardmen.
They didn't speak draconian so they never learned that the lizardmen were other adventurers and had been trapped in the cave for a day now by ghouls.
The party blew all it's dailies on the lizardmen, and the confident psion only used 1 surge after the fight- she then had 7hp. She expected to regain the rest of her health from an extended rest on board their ship. However, the actual threat emerged, 4 ghouls, and there was almost a TPK. I didn't pull any punches and they just barely barely survived. They had almost zero surges at the end, and fled to the ship with the treasure.
The players remarked how nervous they felt when i picked up a pile of dice and rolled for attacks, etc. The 3d6 mechanic is nice that way. I'm also beginning to prefer attacks like 6d6 to 1d20+12- better bell curve, more omnious to players.
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I enjoyed the session, but I frustrated my players. They seemed happy, but less so than usual and one complained about the rules changes.
1- the ranger said that the 3d6 is a bad strategy when trying to hit high-AC targets. I agree, but I'd rather send the party against lower ac targets with the bell curve in effect. I've used 3d6 vs the PCs and I think in a game or two I'll replace the d20 permanently with 3d6 most of the time. The other players prefer the 3d6.
2- Healing Surges- the ranger said my change to healing surges was "angry." He said "you do realize that's 12 days in town to heal up, right?" I said I know. He dislikes it right now- I think it's because he realizes that the reward mechanics of the game hinge upon successful fights. Therefore, he see's a conflict, and one that hurts him a lot. I'm going to use the "heart-container" xp system soon to remove that conflict- that way, they're rewarded for hunting down targets, and fighting is merely an obstacle.
3- They liked the quest cards, but they stink a little bit of railroading. I'd prefer to give a handful of quests at a time and make them all totally optional, just "stuff they can do that would earn fame." I'll aim for that next game
4- The Death Mechanic- not really a death mechanic, but they accept that it makes sense and don't want to die now.
Callan S.:
Hi Nate,
With #1, didn't you say they can choose between a D20 and 3D6? Personally your desire for a bell curve and to 'correctly model skill' smacks of heading toward simulationism, to me? Just wondering how far you'll take it?
#2, Have you looked at the Gamism vs Simulated Gamism thread? I proposed to Cliff that he use a mechanic where, when the character would die, the GM, in secret, writes on a scrap of paper whether the character would in these circumstances, die or not. Then the player chooses between two tokens, one that indicates he dies if the GM's note says he dies, and one where he lives regardless of what the GM's note says. Cliff tried it and the player hid the death token!!!
I'm just wondering what the player of the ranger would do? Particularly because of this: "I think it's because he realizes that the reward mechanics of the game hinge upon successful fights. Therefore, he see's a conflict, and one that hurts him a lot.". Gamism pretty much involves the hurt of losing at some point. This sounds like he's complaining about the very principle of gamist conflict and the hurt of losing? I mean, I've done that at times - one time in warhammer quest board game a random travel encounter had a fire melt half my gold. Not a big issue at first level, but at around 5th level that's multiple sessions of gold gone in an uncontrollable instant (and gold is the same as XP in that game). Slammed my fist onto the table! So I'm not pretending to be a saint on the matter myself. But it seems like if he can't win D&D at character creation, like he did with the ranger before, he's not really interested in engaging conflict and hurt?
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