[D&D/Rifts Style Games] DM burnout- what's a DM get out of it?
Chris_Chinn:
Hi Nate,
I generally enjoy both playing and running D&D, but it is a lot of work - which is why I don't run more than a few sessions at a time.
For games that have crunchy combat rules, and rely on challenge, it's a lot of work to:
a) come up with a good challenge
b) that isn't the same as previous ones and repetitive
c) and to do one for each "encounter" in a given session.
(Mind you, a similar problem holds true for non-combat games where the GM is primary producer of interesting events in the story- one person is producing a lot of the major content.)
The things that make it fun, are like being a puzzle creator or a level designer for a videogame- the fun is in making a clever dungeon/encounter/whatever and that it entertains others.
That said, because it is so much work, I very often like to play other games that do not have as much overhead- where either the players generate a lot of the events and content and I don't actually have to do more than 10 minutes of planning, if that, OR where the game system itself sets that up for me.
This is probably the third thread you've started about your dissatisfaction with D&D - why not try a different game? You don't owe it to anyone to keep doing this if you're not having fun.
Chris
stefoid:
What Chris said, and I think I can distill my previous long and convulted post down to this:
Being creative is intrinsically fun and a goal in itself.
When you pre-plan a plot, you are being creative away form the table.
When you improvise, you are being creative at the table, just like the other players.
Natespank:
Quote
This is probably the third thread you've started about your dissatisfaction with D&D - why not try a different game? You don't owe it to anyone to keep doing this if you're not having fun.
I think it's more the role of DM I'm dissatisfied with than d&d itself. Like I said, the role's cool out-of-game, but while playing it's sort of a downer. I get to make a cool world and scenario but don't even get to play it out.
At best I get to watch others have fun with my scenarios- my only goal is to entertain them? To challenge them? I just want a more interesting experience of DMing during play. Some sort of challenging goal perhaps. Some aspect of "game" during play.
Improv is good, but improv to what end?
Just making fun for others isn't enough. I'm not complaining, I just think we can make the role better. We have so many tools for creating engaging PC experiences but I can't think of many that engage the DM- perhaps why everybody else refuses to do it.
If we switch systems I'd have do GM that too :) It's not a solution, and I do enjoy the design aspects of it, just not the actual play parts.
It's as entertaining as a party, or hanging out, which I can get without prep and with anybody else.
Callan S.:
Nate, are you trying to make something new, or trying to figure out how D&D is fun? It's kind of like your ricocheting between the two?
Particularly with the latter, you might simply be working under a false hypothesis - ie, the idea that there is a fun way to GM D&D, you just gotta find out how. This hypothesis might be entirely false. I've described it as stone soup before - people, under the thought that there is some fun way to GM/play D&D, invent the very ingrediants that make what is consumed have any taste. But eventually this false conclusion turned self forfilling prophesy catches up with them and...you get what is usually called GM burn out. It's the time you realise all your really getting is plain old water, which you can get without prep just from hanging out or a party, already.
You might be thinking 'But I've run so many games before and the players loved it, so it must work and there must be a way'. But as I said with your system diagram of D&D, there is no link between character creation and monsters. Any such line is your own invention. But you keep inventing, along with thousands of others, and attributing your invention to being inherent in the text.
You have never played D&D. Nor have I. Nor have hundreds of thousands who insist they have. You've only ever played your own invention, drawing on lots of components from the text and drawing your own system lines between them. I know, it sounds too absurd to possibly be true. D&D is the greatest game no one has ever played.
But as long as it sounds absurd, the stone soup will keep you in it's grip. The mercenary side of me really admires the design of that over arcing grip.
Think of it this way, could you (given some money and idle time) write a game which is not playable, which misses crucial links between it's main components, but appears playable. I bet you could. Now the only leap to make is that somebody already did.
Chris_Chinn:
Hi Nate,
Quote
Just making fun for others isn't enough. I'm not complaining, I just think we can make the role better. We have so many tools for creating engaging PC experiences but I can't think of many that engage the DM- perhaps why everybody else refuses to do it.
If we switch systems I'd have do GM that too :) It's not a solution, and I do enjoy the design aspects of it, just not the actual play parts.
Here's the thing: DM'ing is engaging. Imagine if someone came to you and said, "I don't like this particular flavor. Tell me how to make myself like this flavor."?
This is what I'm seeing across all these threads- you're looking for a way to make this fun for you, but no one can make it fun for you. You're doing this out of a sense of duty or need to keep the group together, to keep the game going. (Notice here, you said, "blackmail someone else into GM'ing" even that says it's a hassle to do)
There's a phrase I've used in the past - "It's a game, not a marriage". Your group can break up- maybe 3 people are into one kind of game and 2 people are into other games - you still are friends even if you don't play together weekly.
There's no "one right way" to roleplay, so it's ok- it's not a judgment on anyone anymore than one person likes one flavor, another person likes another flavor.
Did you look at the link I gave initially about The Same Page Tool and think about your individual players?
http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/
Those different options aren't on a spectrum of close compatibilities- I listed them as separate options because they simply, don't work together. They're different games altogether, as much as basketball and rugby are two different games, and having random people thinking they're playing one or the other, and playing together = problems.
A lot of GMs burn out because some methods of play are a lot of work, but some GMs burn out because the work they're doing has nothing to do with playing the game and everything to do with trying to referee the hot mess that is rugby-basketball and getting the different groups to play together nice.
So here's the thing: you asked about D&D, and people gave you advice about D&D. Then you asked again -so folks have recommended trying other games. You're asking again, and telling us that different games won't make a difference.
So if the game isn't the issue, guess what is?
Roleplaying, as a hobby, does this thing that gets a lot of us into the same predicament you're in now- "Every group can have fun together, regardless of the game!" + "Only long term groups are 'successful' groups" + "If you don't play together, you're not friends. You OWE it to your friends to make it work."
These aren't true and dislodging them is critical to actually getting to a place where you can consistently have fun without hassle. A lot of us here, now have something like 80-90% really fun sessions, because we're playing with people who want the same things. (10 people rowing a boat is easy if they're rowing in time...)
All that said, there's probably a couple of players in your group who are into the same flavor/type of fun as you, and you should try to find games that support that and play with those folks.
Have you ever ran a game that went just right? Who of your group was there? Who wasn't? Was anyone doing something different or not doing something they usually do?
Chris
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