[Untold] The giant Samoan, the rolly-ball robot, and the not-either-a-unicorn
ashy:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Hi there,
Brannon, I think that when you say "most RPGs," whether here or in the game text, you're saying "D&D! D&D! D&D! Not like D&D!" ... which leads to two comments you may wish to consider.
1. There are a lot of RPGs out there which are neither D&D, nor built within that particular set of assumptions. Untold is a remarkable game design in a lot of ways, but not in others. All this text positioning Untold so far and so unique from "other RPGs," "all other RPGs," "most other RPGs," is fine as a one-time promotional device, and I'm happy to indulge it as part of the game text, but I suggest not ringing that bell too often after that.
Not looking to ring bells here, merely to explain/enlighten. :P
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Also, games which allow rapid and constant use of points to re-build characters on the fly have been around since the Variable Power Pool appeared in Champions III, in the mid-1980s. It's a familiar concept for me and not a source of confusion about flexible character builds. My confusion about the yellow cards is based on whether or not I'm allowed to buy things that are not on that character card, for a starting character. The rules are pretty clear that I can't, but it seems to me as if you're saying here that I can. Which is it?
True, point buy and pools are nothing new. Making it as easy and interchangeable as Untold is, at least in my humble opinion.
Not sure where you're getting the rules that say you can't, because that ain't the case. If you want to build a Klik Roller with Oaze powers, go for it. If you want a L'na Dawn who packs a M201 Assault Rifle, I say awesome. The only things that prevents you from selecting a certain card for a certain character build are the pre-requisites for the cards themselves (i.e. a card that says you have to be a Klik to use it, etc.) or your GM says you can't...
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
I hope I can, because that means I can get cards that require Body Boosts, if I can buy my starting character's Body up. But it also means that I'll be aiming toward the low end of the permissible point spreads when I organize my next game, so that characters aren't huge soak-pools for damage via yellow cards.
Again, only your GM or the cards themselves can prevent you from using cards in your build.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
2. If your desire is to position Untold as far as you can from D&D, then you are working against your goals by describing your character build models in terms of D&D. It's a trend I've seen a lot: "my game is so not D&D!" but then "look, you can play a ranger and a drui and a paladin in our game too!" It's a contradictory combination: "not D&D" plus "whatever D&D does we do it too."
That was just an example. I just want you (and others) to know that the game is flexible enough to handle pretty much whatever you want to play. We've got folks playing "Army Of Darkness" style games, fantasy games with dragons and such, and even Vietnam-era conflict games...all with nothing more than the sets we've released.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
What charms me about the character types is not that you've covered all the D&D character concept bases, but rather that each one offers some edgy, weird, unique content that I, at least, look forward to seeing in the game. The Klik, as I say, are strangely human rather than cold and forbidding, and I think that to my eyes at least, there is considerable room for scary ethnic issues between the Apoc elite - who look a lot like military-survivalist supremacists to me, "pure-blooded" and all that - and the Apoc churls, who look ready-made for gloriously satisfying contrast to that outlook.
I'm not saying that you, the designers, went into this planning such content, but I think it might be cool to look at what you've made with an eye toward what it literally and directly offers that has nothing to do with D&D. Verbalizing that would be more effective for promotion.
We actually do a fair amount of that on our website with all of the free characters, ecologies and setting info we produce. We also welcome fans to "lay claim" to parts of the world and develop them on their own, which we then sanction as "fanonical"... :)
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
OK, those two points are over, merely as food for thought, for you to take or leave, and there's no need to pick over them or get into some kind of wrangle. With the exception of my little question in the middle, I'm leaving it behind.
Coo.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
I'd like to understand Magnitude better. The fact is, I don't get it and maybe you can talk me through it a little.
I've built a character for fun on minimal points. This is the Klik Roller, on 30 points. Check me on all the details, because some of them are guesses and I need them clarified.
Mind 1, Soul 1
Wheel Hooks and Grappling Hooks in the Swap pile
Paid for, all at minimum cost: Microgear Medicdisc, Klik Armor Plating, SML, SML Net, Quick Response, Diplomatic
That leaves me 12 points in the Swap Buffer, just enough for my Swap cards if I need both during an adventure.
He ain't very tough - no Body, for instance. But he's cute!
To calculate his Vitality, he gets 1 from the base Klik card, and the Armor card has Magnitude 2, and it allows me to add its MAG to Vitality against Body attacks. So that's Vitality 3.
Correct
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
But what about other cards' Magnitudes?
They determine how effective those Powers are at doing their job.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Do they go into Vitality too, when they're used?
Not unless the card says they do (i.e. like Klik Armor Plating).
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
If he shoots someone with the SML Net, do the 2 from the one and the 12 from the other add 14 to Vitality against incoming Body attacks that round?
No, the MAG on the SML Net only has to do with the SML net. In this case the 12 Magnitude becomes the number your opponents must Overcome to break out of the net.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Or does the whole "Add MAG to Vitality" only apply to the Armor and nothing else?
It only applies on the Klik Armor Plating, in this case. There are eight Power card types, each works a little differently. (http://www.untoldthegame.com/primer/conflict-and-combat#power-types)
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Now let's talk about MAG and adding to rolls. He's shooting a dude with the SML Net. If I have this right, I add 1 for the Klik card (that applies to everything all the time, right?),
Nope. The 1 MAG from the Klik Race Card only applies if you're using that card (i.e. the IP of the card, which is Punch) to attack.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
2, and 12, for the two cards I'm using for MAG additions, for a total of 15 to add to my roll. Do I have that right?
Nope, only the 12 applies, unless you're Boosting. :)
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Part of the trouble for me is that the game term "MAG" seems to be doing double duty. First, it's the total value you get by rolling and adding everything you're allowed to the rolled value. Second, it's each individual card's contribution to that. So I get pretty confused when a card says "MAG" and I'm not sure what to use for that value.
MAG plays variable duty, but never double duty. MAG always applies only to a specific card. MAG describes how well a given Power is at doing's it job. That job might be doing damage, providing healing, conveying a condition, adding protection, etc.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
For the record, I know I'm confused about this, so you don't have to start by explaining to me that I'm confused. I'm not one of these guys who says "Your rules make no sense" because he doesn't understand them. Instead, I'm looking for the answers specifically so that I'll be able to play.
I hope my answers have helped. :D
Tyler.Tinsley:
Cool! I had seen this in a few places but it's nice to hear about it from Ron. It's great to see other designers formatting their RPGs with components, I have been working on www.seedrpg.com for some time (before I knew anyone else was thinking of using cards for their rpg). While we are doing comparable things I can tell we have some very different goals.
My only question is why label your game as a "card based RPG"? early on in my own project i was thinking about similar branding but I was worried it made the game sound like card play was significant feature (like having a deck, drawing from it, using a hand of cards, that sort of stuff). Is card play significant in untold?
Anyway I think the more RPG's out there using cards and components the better!
Ron Edwards:
Hiya,
Thanks Brannon! That helps a lot. It's too embarassing to admit to you how high some of our MAG additions got during our game due to our confusions ... I think the characters turned out a tad more effective on that basis than the game design permits.
I am not sure whether I've made it clear to someone else reading this how much fun it was to bring the cards in and out of play whether through Hot Swapping or Downgrading (damage), and to see how one could maintain a coherent build for one's character as the details shifted about. And having that take place in units of cards is constraining in the best sense: allowing choices without being overwhelmed by them. It's true that keeping track of the resulting numbers like how much Boost you have available is a skill, but as far as I can tell it never gets harder during play, so once you know how, that's all you have to do.
I think the main thing I'll be clarifying to people up-front, when introducing the game, is that cards are placed in a face-up array in front of you, and that's your character, with the addition of the Hot Swap cards placed similarly in a separate array. There is no "hand" or "deck" to concern yourself with, there's no drawing, and you don't play cards out of a hand in direct opposition to other cards as in most CCGs. Instead, there are simply all the other cards available floating out there in a huge pool, which are available for "re-writing" your character when and if you want. But most of the time, the ones laid out in front of you and visible to everyone are what you'll be working with during play.
None of that caused us any confusion in our evening of play, but it does strike me as the most straightforward difference between Untold and the prevailing assumptions that people may bring to any situation when they see a bunch of cards to be used as the primary mechanic.
Best, Ron
ashy:
Ron really said it best above. We call it "card based" because, well, it is. It is an RPG that uses cards as it's primary tools as opposed to rulebooks, character sheets, etc. However, there are no elements of card play (drawing, turns, etc.) needed. However, we are introducing some of those elements for those that like those sorts of things in their games. That's another of the elements of flexibility that Untold allows - you can add or remove these sorts of things and it does not break the fundamental mechanics of the game itself.
For example, after Gamma World came out, we released a deck called "Flux Mutations", which you can see here: http://www.untoldthegame.com/store/flux-mutations - which DOES act in a random draw, blind card kinda format. You draw a card and then have to Story Swap it into your character until a time when you can "get rid" of it (if you want to - it might be something that your character wants to keep). The add-on rules are included with the deck (and can be found for free online here: http://www.untoldthegame.com/files/flux_mutations_rules.pdf) so you can take it or leave it as you see fit. :)
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