(DitV) Bitterwater
Jay G.:
I'm curious about why you played Sister Martha certain ways.
1. Did you envision the session ending or climaxing with the Dogs' decision to oppose Sister Martha? From your actual play account, it seems like you pulling for that outcome, but I don't know if what happened was the players pushed towards that outcome and you just let things happen, or if you were trying to influence things in that direction.
2. How did Sister Martha do when Brother Hector married the same couple that she did, effectively undermining her claims of authority?
carshow2:
Not sure if this forum's still the appropriate place to respond, but I didn't want to seem like I was letting the thread die without responding
Stake setting - Since posting this, I have left it a little more open. Less "you win....I win" and more ""that's what you want? Cool, let's see if you get it." I don't think it's had a substantial impact on the play. I think I see where you're going with the example - not scripting out the climax of the conflict. I think in your example, it's not the "you win....I win" stake setting that's the problem. Presumably, if the conflict is ACTUALLY about whether the character gets in, then the implied alternative in your example is that if the character loses, they don't get in. If you had in mind that, if the character loses, there would be a twist (for example, we set the stake - do you get in? - and during the raises and sees, I reverse the blow and say yes, you get in, but the person you're looking for is already gone), then I don't think the stake was ever about getting in, it was about getting to the person that I took away from you. Interesting? Sure, but it misidentifies the character's real goal - getting in vs. getting to this person. I'd still be open to suggestions about how avoiding the "you win....I win" improves play, but I still hold that establishing the crux of the confrontation is what Dogs does well. Whether we say that aloud at the beginning or leave it unspoken and rely on the other players to be on the same page as we are, I think there is an implied "I win" in the example that you provided (and any I can think of).
Jay-
Climax - No, that's not what was pulling for them to confront her, though I admit I could be acting on impulses that I'm not conscious of. When I set Sister Martha in front of the Dogs, I knew she was "The Fucker" of the story in that she was the one breaching status quo. I did give the players another potential "The Fucker" in Josiah, who disapproved of Martha's behavior. But the characters quickly took a disliking to Martha's refusal to let them see her husband. As the story proceeded, I responded to this by having her push them towards greater acceptance of her doctrine (including asking for the Dogs to sanctify the marriage she'd conducted) but I didn't have any vision for a shoot out at the end of the game. I think if they had sided with Martha earlier, it would have been Josiah who became the problem, gathering the menfolk to confront the Dogs and demand that they do something about Martha. I'm fairly confident that's what I would have done, but who knows what would have happened in the moment. I think this is a legit way to run things (feel out what the players are reacting against and pushing against them), but I'd be open to criticism.
Undermining claims of authority - Jeez, never thought of it that way. She asked them to do this, in fact. This plays into my thoughts so far about NPCs in the game - that they want the Dogs to side with them or to absolve them. I could see how her response to them could reasonably have been one of bristling at the Dogs authorities. Dunno which would have been the more interesting result.
Callan S.:
I've wondered since the start of this post - no comments on what it's like to play in a world set up to have women objectively (not just subjectively) and empirically be inferior to men? Like demons actually come out if they try to do 'man stuff'.
Christoph Boeckle:
Hello there, and welcome to the Forge, carshow2 (any human name we can call you by?)
Not to be a late-coming annoying rules lawyer, but stakes in Dogs are not about you win / I win negotiation at the player level before conflict. They're about what one side in the imagined events wants and what the other doesn't want to freely give. It's what is being fought over, not the consequences. Note the distinction between player-level negotiation and character-level stakes. Of course, characters are played by humans, but this is about perspective and scope (a character might know what she's fighting for, but has no way of knowing how things will turn out, whereas of course players can negotiate both). See this thread for example.
For some general discussions why this way of handling things is preferred by some, see:
[PTA] Players wanting their PCs to fail?
Big Gencon stakes discussion (on Story Games)
carshow2:
Thanks, Christoph (I'm Mike, BTW)
I'll check out those posts you recommended.
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