Three games about religion
Ron Edwards:
Hi everyone,
As before, I appreciate all the comments, and their sort-of-unconstructed nature is serving me well as the designer of these three ... "things," so that's OK even if it is a little atypical of what I try to encourage at the Forge.
I'd like to remind folks that my personal take on belief as a non-issue is merely a designer's point of view and isn't really subject to debate, so it's not like anyone has to make a case for it as central, or refute that case, or anything of the sort. I didn't raise that issue to argue about it but instead to explain or at least acknowledge the fact that that particular issue didn't show up during a very intuitive, very driven creative surge.
Perhaps over the next year or so I might look forward to some new game designs which do bring that particular issue to the table in a new and more effective way.
For the record, nothing stated so far has been offensive to me or within light-years of that ballpark.
Best, Ron
graypawn:
I've known about the Forge for a few years now, and i've followed a couple of links to this site in the past. But i registered today so i could reply to this thread.
Because you listed a few things that 'defined' the people you see, the people you're talking about. That list was pretty quieting for me to read. (hell, i got here because i followed a link from Vincent Baker's blog...) I don't think they all describe me for reasons you assume, but…i have to admit, in the end, they are all accurate labels for me. A Christian Gamer.
So, from the heart:
I read the list and at first i thought i was so completely totally different, because i wanted to (it's unfair when others describe us better than we know ourselves). What i'm going to respond to is the 'need to say how much i am not of that old religion anymore.'
At first i said to myself, 'well, there's one thing that's NOT got my number.' But then i started to think about it. I realized that, if i went home, to my old church, to my family, to the places i grew up...i would not fit in. What i say, what i believe...they don't work for those people. But, more importantly, they never did.
My churchlife as a child is defined the most by not fitting in. The church i grew up in was amazing. Wonderful. The kids there were all attractive. The parents there were a healthy mix of struggling, honest, laughing, wise and flawed people. There were the perfect families that stood side-by-side with the broken people that couldn't live a 'church life' more than a weekend. We were accepting. We were loving. We were really big, too. And i never, ever in my life felt comfortable there. Accepted? Hell yes. Those people went out of their way to invite me to play basketball, or sing fellowship songs with them, or have a night were we watch TV and cook Chilli. They all enjoyed each others company, they wanted me there, too. That church and it's youth group was amazingly accepting. But i never, ever felt like i belonged. Never judged, never rejected. Hell, i felt like they were really trying to fit me into the picture.
There was no speaking in tongues, there was no definitive opinion on miracles. There were a lot of different takes on Jesus. And more than once i heard 'i just don't know' as the answer to my questions. *These were good people.* But they...were not like me.
Then, still trying to get it, still trying to understand, i wandered off, deeper into the south, and went to a religious college. And there, running under the nose of the old-world religious monarchy that ruled with all the fear and manipulation that i'd heard of in bad fantasy text, i found out what was lacking.
I found a group of guys playing *Stormbringer* in the dorm where i was staying. I found a group of people willing to play Nerf War after dark on a campus with a strict curfew. I found people like me. They believed in God in ways that did not always run smooth between us (more than once i was argued into admitting Homosexuality was a sin, more than once i was temporarily convinces Marriage and Child-rearing to be the path i HAD to take). And a lot of this worked because we found the stereotypical religion that used fear, behavior modification, and ancient text to lord over us...and we ...rebelled? Maybe. Or maybe we just…really liked Role-Playing Games, Anime, Comic Books, and dressing up in suits to see movie premieres.
I don't go to church any more. I am afraid of Hell, until i really think about it, and remember that i don't believe in it any more. I don't pray like i used to. But i believe in God, and i'm willing to put money down on Jesus. I've got a bible, and i read it when i'm sad or lonely. I talk to God, if it feels right, or my heart shouts. I don't have a 'fuzzy-wuzzy' church that i feel better about going to. And i don't have any real bad stories about the religious regime that i was forced to break away from.
But, yeah…i don't…i don't belong at the church, i guess.
But i know now what the church really is, partially because of all the words on a thread like this. And i know that i don't belong there. Overall, no matter how much i want to say that list you used to describe the people you've met, i've go to say...that's me. You're right.
I don't know what you're going to do with it. I don't know who you're going to help or hurt by speaking to lots of people on the internet, at conventions, or over dinner somewhere. But i hope you're as accurate through the whole thing as you were when you described me and so many others that i know. Because it's a mirror. And it helps. I may not like what i see, but it's given me pause. It's quieting.
Alfryd:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on June 09, 2011, 09:10:03 AM
...To them and to the ministry there, personal belief matters greatly, it's at the center of all the observance and all the church activities. For instance, the baptism ritual was about nothing else. But to her, personal belief is kind of a minor and not especially interesting part of her desire to have church and observances be part of her routine. The discontinuity was strong enough to reduce her interest in participating in those observances and activities, quite a bit in fact, compared to her initial enthusiasm when we moved to the area. Our kids no longer attend the Sunday school there, for instance. By contrast, our third child was baptized in the thousand-plus-years-old church in Norrkoping, which includes the graves of my wife's grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great ... you get the idea. And that ceremony, steeped in concrete tradition unimaginable to most Americans, did not involve advocations of belief at all.
If I might jump in, just on this point- I can certainly agree that certain forms of ritual observance might be historically or culturally associated with particular religious institutions, but I'm not certain how this can be (A) separated from any other form of traditionalised behaviour-pattern, like the order in which one is supposed to place cutlery or dress for an interview, and (B) whether such observances are likely to persist much beyond the disappearance of underlying belief within the population at large (which seems to be borne out statistically, over the past century or so.) I mean, this all sounds like harmless granfaloonery in the style of a japanese tea ceremony, but I don't see how this kind of repetition for repetition's sake is exclusive to religious circles.
In response to Callan's original point, which might have been kind of deflected here- sure, I guess you could describe an RPG as a 'question', in the sense of an investigation or exploration of particular subject matter. But I don't feel this is any different from the 'rational' simulationist role-play of an 'irrational' character- The question is: How would a person who does not question his/her religious beliefs react in various situations- including situations that should logically cause him/her to question his/her beliefs? The character might be described as a fully-qualified hardline fanatic (at least initially,) but that doesn't stop the player being party to prodding and poking at the underlying metaphysical assumptions. I mean, regardless of whether you consider faith/belief/conviction to be integral to religious experience, to me that seems a perfectly valid premise for play.
Just my two cents.
ADGBoss:
[quote author=Alfryd link=topic=31578.msg286866#msg286866 date=1310478105
If I might jump in, just on this point- I can certainly agree that certain forms of ritual observance might be historically or culturally associated with particular religious institutions, but I'm not certain how this can be (A) separated from any other form of traditionalised behaviour-pattern, like the order in which one is supposed to place cutlery or dress for an interview, and (B) whether such observances are likely to persist much beyond the disappearance of underlying belief within the population at large (which seems to be borne out statistically, over the past century or so.) I mean, this all sounds like harmless granfaloonery in the style of a japanese tea ceremony, but I don't see how this kind of repetition for repetition's sake is exclusive to religious circles.[/quote]
In my mind this also brings up the idea of cause and effect. Gender roles are important in most religions and with only a surface glance at the phenomena, one might conclude that religion, somewhat dominated by males, created the gender situation we have today around the world. When it could easily be argued that the same gender inequity existed prior to the modern religions (not everywhere but in many places) . So which was the chicken and which the egg? Will that inequality go away with the continued downplay of the importance of religion, at least in America? Gender roles are just one concept where religion may have been the instrument of a more secular belief.
[quote author=Alfryd link=topic=31578.msg286866#msg286866 date=1310478105
In response to Callan's original point, which might have been kind of deflected here- sure, I guess you could describe an RPG as a 'question', in the sense of an investigation or exploration of particular subject matter. But I don't feel this is any different from the 'rational' simulationist role-play of an 'irrational' character- The question is: How would a person who does not question his/her religious beliefs react in various situations- including situations that should logically cause him/her to question his/her beliefs? The character might be described as a fully-qualified hardline fanatic (at least initially,) but that doesn't stop the player being party to prodding and poking at the underlying metaphysical assumptions. I mean, regardless of whether you consider faith/belief/conviction to be integral to religious experience, to me that seems a perfectly valid premise for play.
[/quote]
I hope I am staying relevant and on-topic here, at least I am trying to. The first thing I will point out is the use of "irrational character". I am not saying that I disagree with that description of such a person, but the kind of person who sticks by their beliefs even in the face of some evidence is not always... well irrational. They may be relying on the science of metaphysics and one could argue that religious belief, if not institutions, are scientific in their own way. Do we call scientists who cling to old theories irrational? Sometimes I guess we do so perhaps the word does fit properly. It concerns me though that I may not and as a whole we may not have the language to properly and objectively look at a subject that everyone likely has an opinion on.
Lastly, and I apologize for what may seem like a side-step here, when I was reading the above the movie Erik The Viking came to mind. A character in the movie is a Christian, where everyone else is a pagan, and when the party getsi to Valhalla, he can't see anything because he is not a believer in their religion. Without spoiling, this situation ultimately has a hand in the resolution of the movie. I think that rules like that in a game might make for an interesting dynamic in play between competing religions.
ADGBoss:
My apologies for the very badly formatted response... yinged when I should have yanged
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