Creating Social Situations & Characters
wholeridge:
Quote from: happysmellyfish on August 22, 2011, 10:26:08 PM
I agree with Ron here. You need to actually talk to the players, to outline what everyone wants from roleplaying. There's no point trying to herd them into "correct" play, via in-world obstacles. In my experience, that'll just lead to a bad time for all, and potentially bad blood to boot.
Talk can be vague without concrete experiences; I'd give them an in-game experience first so that we would have something concrete to talk about. I believe that a lot of players would be pleased by the challenge of needing to find an alternate means to achieve their goals. If they aren't pleased and complain, then that's the beginning of a conversation about what everyone wants from roleplaying.
Eliminating easy solutions isn't "herding" the players, it's challenging them to be more creative. It's up to the players how they deal with the fact that bombs and beatings don't work to accomplish their goals.
As an "immersive" player, it makes perfect sense to me that the characters would take the easiest path to their goals -- just as we all do in real life -- regardless of what the players want out of roleplaying. "What the players want out of roleplaying" is not a valid character motivation. The characters need an in-story reason to do what the players will enjoy. Otherwise the characters are acting irrationally and cease to be "believable" (in the literary sense of a character being believable).
Josh Porter:
I don't mean to be an ass, but why are you (plural) playing DFRPG?
You, as a GM, obviously want to get the most out of the system. Using aspects, social combats, NPCs with real motivations, etc. But your friends who control the PCs (and therefore the story) do not want that. They sound like they want Shadowrun. Which is awesome. Some of my favorite times playing RPGs came from Shadowrun. Because we blew shit up and robbed banks.
It sounds like the PCs want to shoot things. Dresden has fun combat mechanics, for sure, but it's not the core of the game. You are fighting the system instead of using it. Have you considered a discussion on your frustrations and whether DFRPG is right for what they want?
Daniel36:
Quote from: wholeridge on August 23, 2011, 07:10:18 AM
"What the players want out of roleplaying" is not a valid character motivation. The characters need an in-story reason to do what the players will enjoy.
How is that? Character motivations are by default not valid, because the players don't play the characters because their characters want to, the players play because the players want to. Their motivation is more important than their character's motivation.
I am not saying they shouldn't be considerate about what you want out of the game (trust me, I have suffered the same problems), but their characters really have nothing to do with the game. Yes, they are a part of a story, and I agree the story would be way more fun for all involved if it were taken seriously, but if light hearted stuff is what your players want, then light hearted stuff you should give, or find another group (or game, as suggested)
There is no denying there should be a middle road. If you want their characters to have a good in-story reason, then they should respect that and come up with it. But if that is not going to be enough for you, you have to reconsider the current set-up.
wholeridge:
Quote from: Daniel36 on August 23, 2011, 12:44:10 PM
How is that? Character motivations are by default not valid, because the players don't play the characters because their characters want to, the players play because the players want to. Their motivation is more important than their character's motivation.
You can't compare the importance of character motivation vs. player motivation in role playing any more than you can compare the importance of character motivation vs. reader motivation in a novel. Serious readers want to read about characters with meaningful motivations; serious players wants to play characters with meaningful motivations.
Quote from: Daniel36 on August 23, 2011, 12:44:10 PM
I am not saying they shouldn't be considerate about what you want out of the game (trust me, I have suffered the same problems), but their characters really have nothing to do with the game. Yes, they are a part of a story, and I agree the story would be way more fun for all involved if it were taken seriously, but if light hearted stuff is what your players want, then light hearted stuff you should give, or find another group (or game, as suggested)
It is true that both some games and some fiction make no attempt at meaningful character motivation, but I don't see evidence in this thread that the players being discussed want to play silly characters. On the contrary, in taking the easy path of violence -- which the GM has inadvertently left open to them -- the players are having their characters behave very realistically.
Quote from: Daniel36 on August 23, 2011, 12:44:10 PM
There is no denying there should be a middle road. If you want their characters to have a good in-story reason, then they should respect that and come up with it. But if that is not going to be enough for you, you have to reconsider the current set-up.
Well, yes, you might be able to scold the players into both making their characters behave differently and inventing in-story reasons for that different behavior. But if, as I suspect, the real problem is that the GM created a scenario in which bombings and beatings were the quickest route to success, then doesn't it make more sense to plug this loophole in the scenario design than to sermonize at the players?
Dan (Wholeridge)
happysmellyfish:
Quote
As an "immersive" player, it makes perfect sense to me that the characters would take the easiest path to their goals -- just as we all do in real life -- regardless of what the players want out of roleplaying. "What the players want out of roleplaying" is not a valid character motivation. The characters need an in-story reason to do what the players will enjoy. Otherwise the characters are acting irrationally and cease to be "believable" (in the literary sense of a character being believable).
I'm talking about the higher level social contract of what the players want to get out of roleplaying. This is the real rule zero, and should feed into every other decision: what characters we create, according to which rules, for what purpose. I think it's important not to conflate player goals with character goals.
It could also be important to relate all this back to the opening post. If the characters are taking the easiest path to their goals, which apparently means blowing stuff up and wasting people, the characters are probably psychopathic. I mean that in the sense that they don't care about their actions, so long as the consequences don't negatively impact on them. If you do this in real life, you have serious problems. We should stop thinking of these characters as rational.
Like it or not, people will already have their own idea of what they want out of roleplaying. They will build characters and situations to suit those goals. So if your players are playing as psychopaths, it doesn't matter what in-world obstacles you place before them, they're still going to be playing psychopaths... in increasingly restricted environments.
It would be much quicker to simply talk to the players beforehand, and ask what they really want. They could tell you one of two things. 1 - they want to play more interesting characters, but tend to slip into psychopath mode. 2 - they're not interested in all this social stuff, and just want to kill dudes. In the first case, you can start working out ways to collaboratively head in the right direction. In the second case, you can probably start playing Pathfinder.
This doesn't seem very controversial to me.
Quote
It is true that both some games and some fiction make no attempt at meaningful character motivation, but I don't see evidence in this thread that the players being discussed want to play silly characters. On the contrary, in taking the easy path of violence -- which the GM has inadvertently left open to them -- the players are having their characters behave very realistically.
How is avoiding violence silly? I question how realistic that sort of behaviour actually is (not that realism is necessarily anything to shoot for).
Quote
Well, yes, you might be able to scold the players into both making their characters behave differently and inventing in-story reasons for that different behavior. But if, as I suspect, the real problem is that the GM created a scenario in which bombings and beatings were the quickest route to success, then doesn't it make more sense to plug this loophole in the scenario design than to sermonize at the players?
I'm not suggesting the GM tell the players to do anything, simply ask if this is really the kind of game they're interested in playing. Your outlining of success is only one kind of success, from one perspective. Just talk to the players, to see if they share your outline!
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