Dinosaur Cowboys skirmish game
bosky:
Hi, first post here. I've been developing a game for a while now and it feels pretty solid and playable by this point. I haven't had much luck getting ideas or feedback from the vast internet community, but this site seems to be great for helping just that.
Basically the setting is dinosaurs and cowboys. The idea came about when I was writing Nanowrimo in 2009, and thinking of cowboys riding t-rexes, herding triceratops, etc. really sparked some childish glee in me. I have some background information of WHY there are cowboys and dinosaurs, but more or less the year is 2285, society collapsed and was rebuilt, and dinosaurs escaped an "underground vault" at Yellowstone. The science doesn't really have to fit, all I wanted was an excuse to have laser six-shooters.
Originally I designed it as a rules-light RPG with skirmish elements, and then after playtesting a few campaigns I realized the system was doing neither very well. So instead I dropped the majority of the RPG elements and went pretty much pure skirmish. This was back in November 2010, and since then I've been a busy bee crafting rules, stat sheets, etc. I'm now at the playtesting stage, and thankfully the game is feeling finished enough that most of my playtests are just "plays", where I realize I'm not changing much between each game and instead just enjoying playing it.
So anyways I would really appreciate some review of the rules. I know just asking for that and posting a 50 page PDF isn't the best idea on this forum, so let me break down some of the mechanics and problem areas I see.
The game is based on two Posses (composed of some variant of 1 Leader, 2-4 Members, 1 Dinosaur) fighting each other, either in a straight up fight or an objective based game. The action takes place over a tabletop populated with the usual smattering of hills and trees and so on. Every Posse member has their own statline, including traits (to make them unique) and weapons. The idea is Posse building is very flexible. You can improve your different statistics using a limited pool of Improvement Points.
For combat I'm super duper happy with the system I've devised. Each weapon has an Attack and Damage value, like 4-1. 4 Attacks in this case would mean rolling 4D12, and you try to roll above a target number. That number is based on the Ranged Miss Chance of the character who's doing the attack, with a base of 8. So you'd roll the 4D12 and count any dice above 8 as a success, then add the Damage value (1 in this case). This means you can have weapons that only roll 1D12 but add a bunch of Damage (like a 1A-7D weapon). Then the usual tricks like Critical Hits (count any natural 12 as 2 hits). "Fumbles" (natural 1s) are how Reloading is done, so if the weapon has a Reload Value of 2x1 (two 1s) and you roll two or more 1s in your attack, the gun is empty and needs to be reloaded. The nice part of this is I can easily apply modifiers (+1 Attack, for example, or harder to hit by modifying the Ranged Miss Chance), and my favorite of all is being able to use the system for both ranged AND melee combat.
Anyways dinosaurs add their own unique element to the game, plus the usual skirmish "trappings" like initiative, movement, bravery tests, etc.
So some of the problems:
- No art (yet?). For a while I was considering using old western photographs from the Library of Congress archives, just with a sepia tone for consistency. I never really got around to putting those in the rulebook though.
- Not a lot of outside review. I've wrangled my wife into a game or two plus a few friends (who aren't hugely into games so they couldn't provide a ton of feedback), but really I just need some more eyes on the system. When I playtest I find I can get into "ruts" where I end up with similar Posses because it's hard to force myself to think outside my usual strategies and tactics, and therefore hard to test the game in it's entirety.
- Editing and clarity could use some work. This is especially true in the whole Creating a Posse / Creating a Character section of the rulebook...to ME it makes sense, but to someone with no history in the game it might look like unclear garbage. I think the Combat section is fairly clear, as is the ending sections of the rulebook...but yeah everything in between feels vaguely jumbled to me.
- Formatting is another big concern of mine. Right now I'm using the standard full page layout that I used and loved when I was 13 years old. Should two columns be used instead? Should I add some themed borders of some sort to each page?
Phew long winded post, but this seems like the kind of place where verbosity is (for once!) not frowned upon. Anyways I love having a pet project like this on the go, it's so good to keep the brain active and see the game grow and evolve, and I'd really like to take it to that "polished" level, both in terms of content and layout.
In terms of links I have a main blog for the project: http://dinosaurcowboys.wordpress.com/
The rulebook itself can be downloaded at: http://dinosaurcowboys.wordpress.com/rules/
And I have a general outline of good posts in the blog: http://dinosaurcowboys.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/what-to-read/
For an idea of how it plays you can see: http://dinosaurcowboys.wordpress.com/category/game-sessions/
Kyles Games:
Ok, I have a lot of your issues with Orchestra, despite it being a fairly different animal, so I'll address them one at a time.
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No art (yet?). For a while I was considering using old western photographs from the Library of Congress archives, just with a sepia tone for consistency. I never really got around to putting those in the rulebook though.
Yes, use old public domain photos that fit! Do it! Also, if you want, you may wanna Photoshop them a little if you find any that could be "action shots" with a laser drawn on. Drop me a line (PM is fine) if you want me to help with this (I'll do it for free and all, since I'm intrigued by the idea).
Quote
Not a lot of outside review. I've wrangled my wife into a game or two plus a few friends (who aren't hugely into games so they couldn't provide a ton of feedback), but really I just need some more eyes on the system. When I playtest I find I can get into "ruts" where I end up with similar Posses because it's hard to force myself to think outside my usual strategies and tactics, and therefore hard to test the game in it's entirety.
Solicit everywhere you can and use a program like MapTool or Gametable (or heck, even Minecraft) to play over the internet. Don't feel too bad if the playtest session is canceled at the very last minute (sometimes without notice to you) or there's time zone confusion and stuff never gets done, just try again. Also, these ruts are normal. I can't tell you how many times I've played Battletech with my main 'Mech being an Awesome with a ton (or forty) of ERPPC's. Just force yourself to try something else.
Quote
Editing and clarity could use some work. This is especially true in the whole Creating a Posse / Creating a Character section of the rulebook...to ME it makes sense, but to someone with no history in the game it might look like unclear garbage. I think the Combat section is fairly clear, as is the ending sections of the rulebook...but yeah everything in between feels vaguely jumbled to me.
Quote
Formatting is another big concern of mine. Right now I'm using the standard full page layout that I used and loved when I was 13 years old. Should two columns be used instead? Should I add some themed borders of some sort to each page?
I hear you. I've done the same thing with Orchestra, though it is transitioning to wiki form. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this, I've seen both ways. Two columns is more of a "professional" look, but sometimes all that means is that it's pretentious. I've definitely seen some stellar games written using both, and ultimately it doesn't make a giant difference. Part of the nice thing about two columns is that inserting art doesn't break the page up as much. As far as themed borders- feel free, but use taste. Also, if you want typesetting stuff, feel free to ask me (I'd be delighted to since I'm having a metric crapton of trouble getting Orchestra's art assets ready and I want something I can do well).
Now on to my advice from reading- The page numbers probably could be shifted over (unless you want to print bound copies, in which case keep it centered and it'll save you no end of distress), and you don't need "X of 50".
I like the examples (as evidenced by the falling damage rules, initiative, etc.), they're super helpful (though the rules are actually pretty clear to me). The mechanics are also really good- simple enough for them to be used a lot, but nice and crunchy.
Nitpicky: Advancing a dinosaur (Horned dinosaurs are listed at 22 health, but the example acts like it's a 3 point increase to 23) has a little error.
And actually, that's the only real critique I can give right now. It's a pretty good system, the setting's interesting, I like it.
bosky:
Thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated!
Quote from: Kyles Games on September 13, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
Yes, use old public domain photos that fit! Do it! Also, if you want, you may wanna Photoshop them a little if you find any that could be "action shots" with a laser drawn on. Drop me a line (PM is fine) if you want me to help with this (I'll do it for free and all, since I'm intrigued by the idea).
The images I was planning on using are viewable here, and I had also considered taking my own photos of miniatures + dinosaurs and then sepia toning those. After seeing the images do you think Photoshopping anything into them is worthwhile? A lot of them give me an old west feel but definitely not a sci-fi or dinosaur sense to them.
Quote from: Kyles Games on September 13, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
Solicit everywhere you can and use a program like MapTool or Gametable (or heck, even Minecraft) to play over the internet. Don't feel too bad if the playtest session is canceled at the very last minute (sometimes without notice to you) or there's time zone confusion and stuff never gets done, just try again. Also, these ruts are normal. I can't tell you how many times I've played Battletech with my main 'Mech being an Awesome with a ton (or forty) of ERPPC's. Just force yourself to try something else.
Mentioning Battletech made me nostalgic. Anyways this is a good idea and one I hadn't thought of. I was more aiming to get people with existing Warhammer 40,000 or other miniature collections to give it a go, but a software tool might be more easily accessible and lower investment for people to try. I haven't use MapTool or GameTable before so I'll have to research, but I take it you can just move pieces/images around on a board or something?
Quote from: Kyles Games on September 13, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
I hear you. I've done the same thing with Orchestra, though it is transitioning to wiki form. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this, I've seen both ways. Two columns is more of a "professional" look, but sometimes all that means is that it's pretentious. I've definitely seen some stellar games written using both, and ultimately it doesn't make a giant difference. Part of the nice thing about two columns is that inserting art doesn't break the page up as much. As far as themed borders- feel free, but use taste. Also, if you want typesetting stuff, feel free to ask me (I'd be delighted to since I'm having a metric crapton of trouble getting Orchestra's art assets ready and I want something I can do well).
So far I've stayed away from the two column approach because some of the examples or statelines or tables tend to bleed pretty far across the page. I just find two columns to be a bit cramped. I haven't printed a hardcopy in a while though so maybe I'll try adding the images and printing it to see how it looks.
Quote from: Kyles Games on September 13, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
Now on to my advice from reading- The page numbers probably could be shifted over (unless you want to print bound copies, in which case keep it centered and it'll save you no end of distress), and you don't need "X of 50".
I like the examples (as evidenced by the falling damage rules, initiative, etc.), they're super helpful (though the rules are actually pretty clear to me). The mechanics are also really good- simple enough for them to be used a lot, but nice and crunchy.
Nitpicky: Advancing a dinosaur (Horned dinosaurs are listed at 22 health, but the example acts like it's a 3 point increase to 23) has a little error.
Thanks for these ideas, I've removed the Page X of Y to be just be Page X (kind of a "duh" moment on my behalf :) ) and also fixed that Advancing a Dinosaur example. Good catch! Thanks again for the read through!
Daniel36:
Heya Bosky,
Love the idea, downloaded the rules. I like how it feels familiar. It kind of feels like Necromunda but with cowboys and dinosaurs. Win win situation if you ask me. I have absolutely no trouble with the formatting. I understand that two columns looks more profesional, but this doesn't bother me at all.
On art, I am of the opinion that you will only force a specific feel to your game that might not jive well with people. Let them feel the game for themselves... The map you supplied is all the art I need... But that can be a matter of taste.
I can't really help with reviewing right now, I have a ton of things to do right now, so my free time mostly heads to Chronicles, but I am setting up a games club where I live, so I might be able to turn a couple of try out games once that starts running... Mind you, this won't be any time soon... But I wouldn't mind playtesting...
Kyles Games:
Quote from: bosky on September 13, 2011, 08:06:08 AM
Thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated!
The images I was planning on using are viewable here, and I had also considered taking my own photos of miniatures + dinosaurs and then sepia toning those. After seeing the images do you think Photoshopping anything into them is worthwhile? A lot of them give me an old west feel but definitely not a sci-fi or dinosaur sense to them.
Mentioning Battletech made me nostalgic. Anyways this is a good idea and one I hadn't thought of. I was more aiming to get people with existing Warhammer 40,000 or other miniature collections to give it a go, but a software tool might be more easily accessible and lower investment for people to try. I haven't use MapTool or GameTable before so I'll have to research, but I take it you can just move pieces/images around on a board or something?
So far I've stayed away from the two column approach because some of the examples or statelines or tables tend to bleed pretty far across the page. I just find two columns to be a bit cramped. I haven't printed a hardcopy in a while though so maybe I'll try adding the images and printing it to see how it looks.
Thanks for these ideas, I've removed the Page X of Y to be just be Page X (kind of a "duh" moment on my behalf :) ) and also fixed that Advancing a Dinosaur example. Good catch! Thanks again for the read through!
Actually, now that I see the images, they're fine right now. I wouldn't take pictures of miniatures because it's usually pretty obvious they're photos of miniatures (this absolutely killed me when I was getting into CBT and a lot of the Games Workshop things).
And yes, solicit WH40K and especially Necromunda players. That's what it reminded me of but I couldn't come up with the title of. The MapTool/Gametable communities should also be a place you can recruit people.
As for the columns- it depends whether you're putting them in line or not. If it's at the end of a page after text it's ok, but if it'll be in text it'd look best at the top left or bottom right if you were just going full-page text (in my opinion). There's nothing wrong with pictures and full page, but they work best as background or a page conclusion.
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