Dinosaur Cowboys skirmish game
bosky:
@Daniel36: Thanks for the feedback. The idea of no art and using descriptive text is an interesting one. I am hoping to eventually write some supporting fiction and I had considered adding little "blurbs" throughout the rulebook to help immersion. Any help with playtesting is very much appreciated, and should be a low barrier of entry to try since you can proxy figures and use existing 28mm scale terrain.
@Kyles Games: Yeah I didn't know how much could be photoshopped onto the images, and since I don't actually have a big cowboy collection (yet) pictures of minis in set battles wouldn't work regardless. I'll try to drum up some Necromunda players, but their community already seems pretty small and tight knit (at least around here).
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Aside from formatting I ran into another question in regards to the core rules. I'm having a hard time choosing between game balance, rules simplicity, and real world believability (as far as dinosaurs and modern people can be believed...). This is specifically in regards to the dinosaurs themselves. Right now they are treated sort of like big cowboys in the sense that they move and attack the same way, and are really only differentiated by their massive amount of HP, ability to transport others, and lack of equipment. I was thinking of maybe trying to split their rules a bit further. Maybe make dinosaurs not take Bravery Tests because of their massive size. Also maybe they can ignore difficult terrain (like trees and hills) since they can just smash right through them. But splitting their rules starts to complicate the game, even if it helps portray dinosaurs more realistically.
So I guess my question is: Do you think the way dinosaurs are handled needs to be changed? Do they need to be "spiced up" and differentiated further at the cost of simplicity and the potential cost of balance?
Kyles Games:
One consideration for dinosaurs might be making bravery tests based on noise (firearms) as opposed to just damage, making certain weapons have a bravery effect on dinosaurs (or everyone) beyond just their damage? Similarly, maybe make bravery be a turn-based thing instead of a one-hit thing (though I may have read that wrong). Also, Dinosaurs should probably still have bravery tests, but based on size, something like 5/size category from smallest to largest? Similarly, dinosaurs could have facing require movement distance input (maybe like 1/4" for up to a full 180 turn). They should definitely mind terrain less than a human (at least the larger ones) due to size. On the topic of rules I'd suggest going with rules simplicity- which I think you're already doing well enough at- since I think you've got a self-balancing situation going on here (one strategy will always fall prey to a counter strategy).
Dinosaur handling is fine now, but you could certainly make them a little more distinguished since right now they're not terribly distinguished from a heavy hand-to-hand fighter.
bosky:
Hmm all good considerations, thanks for the ideas. For Bravery Tests you are correct that they are based on one-shot damage instead of total per turn. The reason being that otherwise damage per turn would have to be tracked or remembered somehow, like "Well I hit him for 4, but I think I hit him for 8 earlier too right? No no that was last turn, wasn't it?". But as it stands the larger dinosaurs basically don't take Bravery Tests already since it's very hard to do half of 35 HP of damage in a single attack.
I sort of visualized the dinosaurs as bred and trained as warmounts, so firing wouldn't distract them as much. Although what kind of rule method did you have in mind for deciding noise and how it affects dinosaurs? I'm more concerned about people firing while mounted since if dinosaurs are skittish that wouldn't work as well. Hmm maybe just dinosaurs could take a Bravery Test based on the total damage per turn instead of in one-shot, so then players get into a case of "Bring the beast down!" and focus firing to try to get it to flee.
I was also considering changing a failed Bravery Test to use a chart (like 1-2: Flee, 3-4: Stunned, 5-6: Berserk) and then I could use a different chart of dinosaurs.
I'm trying to avoid making dinosaurs have to move like vehicles in other games with turning arcs and the like (flashes of Car Wars here). Although I almost wonder if different "classes" of dinosaurs could behave differently, which would have the bonus of differentiating them beyond just statistics. Like small dinosaurs being more agile and light whereas big dinosaurs are ponderous in their movement. Smalls could dart through terrain while big ones destroy it, etc.
Now that I've opened this can of worms I definitely need to think on it a bit more. If only there was an elegant movement solution that wasn't too different, but just different enough to be flavorful and easy to use.
bosky:
Harkening back to Battletech a bit here, but what about a "Fear Scale" (similar to the Heat Scale from BTech) that each Dinosaur has to maintain. Getting hit for massive damage, getting charged, having an ally die, etc. could all add "Fear". Then at certain points Bravery Tests are needed, and also their Movement changes based on the Fear level. I was considering random movement lengths (like D6" instead of a flat 4") with the die type changing or modifiers being added/removed as the Fear increases. So basically as the dinosaur becomes more fearful they are harder to control and predict and so their movement maximum becomes more and more random.
Or really just flat random movement in general for dinosaurs...again not in the sense of random direction, but random distance. Honestly I've never been a huge fan of unpredictable movement since then you can't reliably assume "Model X is going to be at spot Y in 3 turns" so planning and strategy are harder. I know some games swear by it though (The Sword and The Flame comes to mind). Adding a few more hitpoints and a random MV would probably help differentiate them enough, both showing their wild, primal nature and still falling inside the same movement framework.
Kyles Games:
Quote from: bosky on September 14, 2011, 09:44:52 AM
Hmm all good considerations, thanks for the ideas. For Bravery Tests you are correct that they are based on one-shot damage instead of total per turn. The reason being that otherwise damage per turn would have to be tracked or remembered somehow, like "Well I hit him for 4, but I think I hit him for 8 earlier too right? No no that was last turn, wasn't it?". But as it stands the larger dinosaurs basically don't take Bravery Tests already since it's very hard to do half of 35 HP of damage in a single attack.
I sort of visualized the dinosaurs as bred and trained as warmounts, so firing wouldn't distract them as much. Although what kind of rule method did you have in mind for deciding noise and how it affects dinosaurs? I'm more concerned about people firing while mounted since if dinosaurs are skittish that wouldn't work as well. Hmm maybe just dinosaurs could take a Bravery Test based on the total damage per turn instead of in one-shot, so then players get into a case of "Bring the beast down!" and focus firing to try to get it to flee.
I was also considering changing a failed Bravery Test to use a chart (like 1-2: Flee, 3-4: Stunned, 5-6: Berserk) and then I could use a different chart of dinosaurs.
I'm trying to avoid making dinosaurs have to move like vehicles in other games with turning arcs and the like (flashes of Car Wars here). Although I almost wonder if different "classes" of dinosaurs could behave differently, which would have the bonus of differentiating them beyond just statistics. Like small dinosaurs being more agile and light whereas big dinosaurs are ponderous in their movement. Smalls could dart through terrain while big ones destroy it, etc.
Now that I've opened this can of worms I definitely need to think on it a bit more. If only there was an elegant movement solution that wasn't too different, but just different enough to be flavorful and easy to use.
For sound, I would've just done a flat number per weapon used that tracks neighboring tiles and riders, as well as incoming fire. For the most part they wouldn't be so skittish as to run away from a gun shot, but they could panic in fights with a lot of guns going off. Sound could even just track any ranged weapon other than unpowered ones (and maybe lasers depending on how they're handled) used on the battlefield, making it important as a balance issue between using a dino or bringing a Gatling gun (individual shots count, not the weapon type).
Maybe training could be a bonus (or flaw in the case it's standard but lacking on some) to resist panic? Similarly, bravery damage could be modified by certain weapons/a modifier could be applied (flamethrowers, for instance, plasma weapons?).
Definitely don't make dinosaurs like vehicles, they are living entities. That said, they should definitely be bulkier than people, so their facing should be more important since they can't turn as quick. Maybe add additional bravery damage to attacks from behind dinosaurs?
Quote from: bosky on September 14, 2011, 09:49:21 AM
Harkening back to Battletech a bit here, but what about a "Fear Scale" (similar to the Heat Scale from BTech) that each Dinosaur has to maintain. Getting hit for massive damage, getting charged, having an ally die, etc. could all add "Fear". Then at certain points Bravery Tests are needed, and also their Movement changes based on the Fear level. I was considering random movement lengths (like D6" instead of a flat 4") with the die type changing or modifiers being added/removed as the Fear increases. So basically as the dinosaur becomes more fearful they are harder to control and predict and so their movement maximum becomes more and more random.
Or really just flat random movement in general for dinosaurs...again not in the sense of random direction, but random distance. Honestly I've never been a huge fan of unpredictable movement since then you can't reliably assume "Model X is going to be at spot Y in 3 turns" so planning and strategy are harder. I know some games swear by it though (The Sword and The Flame comes to mind). Adding a few more hitpoints and a random MV would probably help differentiate them enough, both showing their wild, primal nature and still falling inside the same movement framework.
I'm not a fan of doing random movement. Most people and animals can move at a reliable rate. The Fear Scale would work okay, but remember to note that fear can dissipate quicker than heat- maybe riders could help with this?
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