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Author Topic: [Föld] "moral inhibitions" system?  (Read 1924 times)
Thriff
Member

Posts: 68


« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »

Cedric,

Our ideas have begun stabilizing on a few key topics—that’s a really good sign.

I will need to re-read Deltas/Heroic Dice and consider what to do with them.

I clarify some things about ASH later in this post, specifically Compulsions.

Character Creation

2- 10/9 Discussed below in Inhibition Traits/Resolution
3- Fair enough.

1- Not a fan of race-specific bonuses. Not sure if I’ve mentioned my position on this in this thread already or not, but I believe a character has two “parts”: Aesthetic and Mechanics.

Aesthetic is the appearance, narrative quirks, back-story, and over-all “feel” of a character. Mechanics are the quantified values that define a character. Skills, Attributes, Abilities, Magic, Racial Bonuses… anything that is handled by the rules in a mechanical fashion.

I don’t like systems that limit a character’s Mechanics based on their Aesthetics (or, less commonly, vice versa).

Racial bonuses do exactly this (especially during character creation). They fabricate a "I can't have that skill because I would rather have a cool character... oh well... guess I'll just compromise". Compromise before the game even begins? Nonsense.

Ex: I may want a racial bonus because it seems useful but I want to play a different race because I think it is more fun. Racial bonuses set the game up in such a way that Aesthetics and Mechanics can (and in this case have) conflicted with one another. I can’t have a character that is both useful and fun because the bonus is race-specific.

You could add a class system that all races can choose from… but I don’t think that will help your game. A class system seems wildly unnecessary for what you're doing.

Each race already has something special—their excellent back-stories, histories, and role in the setting.

Threes

You could’ve mentioned 3 was an important number :P *sigh*. Haha.

Then again… I don’t see many 3s in your system or mythology. Cristal of Szerv and Elo fluxes, 4 “schools” of magic, 5+ races, innumerable demons, Resolution/Control for Magic resolution, 4 health points… I don’t see any 3s… perhaps your game has strayed from this “theme of threes”?

Magic Resolution

Fair enough. I was tired and rushing that section (I also didn’t want to bore you with me repeating myself too much).

I don’t see how a D12 would help… perhaps you were just trying to understand what I meant.

Current ideas:

You use a D6 Resolution and D20 Control dice right now. I suggest re-naming the D6 as the “Control” dice and the D20 as the “Mastery” dice. Perhaps it’s a translation thing but I find it easier to understand what both dice do when these names are used.

The spell succeeds if I am Masterful enough to accomplish it; thus the Masterful dice determines whether or not the spell happens. The term “mastery” also reinforces the link between a low Inhibition and mastery over fluxes.

I don’t harm myself if I am “Controlled” enough to overcome the difficulty (determined by environmental variables, personal variables, the raw difficulty…) of the spell.

Both Control D6 and Mastery D20 are rolled simultaneously.

Control Die

Is a regular D6. Roll above target value for a success. There are three difficulties of Novice, Professional, and Masterful (I’m updating ASH to a 3-point scale for difficulty) which correspond to target values of 2, 4, 6.

You mentioned that determining the difficulty will have to be done perfectly because there is a lot to lose with a failure. I agree. That’s why I think a 3-point difficulty will (1) help the group agree on the difficulty of a spell. Granted a 5-point would be more “accurate” but it also provides room for argument. I prioritize fluidity over “realism”. (2) a 3-point also makes it easier for players to calculate the risk of a spell (if the Mastery and Control die both fail).

I was considering making magic cost a mandatory 1 health (the success cost in your current system) but I’ve decided against this idea. Your current system provides the opportunity for the character to attempt magic, fail, and not take any damage as a result. I prefer that ambiguity over a mandatory 1 health cost with the risk of losing more if your Control fails while your Mastery succeeds (i.e. you make the spell happen but don’t have the Control to control/guide/focus it)

Mastery Die

I chose D10s for the Body and Mind stat because they easily sum to a value on the D20.

Every character will always have a static value for both Body and Mind. These are both on a 10-point scale. All characters begin as a 10/9 or a 9/10. No Character can have 10/10 at any time.

So an Inhibition roll (can be called at any time) requires either the Body or Mind stat (never both) to be rolled as a D10. The player succeeds if they roll above their static value of Body or Mind.

A Mastery roll (for flux manipulation) requires the player to roll a D20. The target value is the sum of the Body and Mind stat. [Ex: 10+9 at character creation=19 at CC, or 8 for a character with a Body of 3 and Mind of 5]. The character succeeds if the player rolls above the body+mind target value.

A chart:

Control/Mastery
Success/success= spell succeeds and expend 1 health
Fail/ Success= spell succeeds and expend (Dif-D6 result) health
Success/fail= spell fails and expend 0 health
Fail/Fail= spell fails and expend 0 health

Inhibition Traits/Resolution

Sure 10/9. It will depend on the pacing you want. If the characters start nearer 10 then they’ll likely need more XP to spend on forcing successes on failed Inhibition rolls. This is because they’ll have a 0% and 10% chance of success respectively.

The above 0% is why I suggested 9/8 to provide a 10% and 20% split… at least there is a realistic probability of success in both.

Don’t know at this stage—it’ll really only influence the pacing and the necessity for XP to spend.

I thought it was quite tricky of me to tie CCC with the setting :P. Glad I did so. But trickery aside, it is important to bind setting and system.

Glad you like CCC now :P

The GM considers player suggestions and context and makes the final decision of which CCC is appropriate for a forced Inhibition success.

True, consequences leave the character in tact, but they gravely inhibit the player. Consider: you’ve got 7 different groups always intruding upon your PC’s life. Yes the player can respond as desired… but they won’t have the opportunity to do the things they want to do in the world.

So in many ways they are all fairly balanced in the way that they deter players from lowering their Inhibition.

All 3 CCC inhibit the PLAYER. Conditions: too crazy/crippled of a character to use effectively, Chores: too busy maintaining the chores to use effectively, Consequences: too obstructed by NPC intervention to use the PC effectively.

XP Generation


In ASH


Compulsions have no effect on any resolution mechanism in ASH. They do not grant you Success Levels “SL” in resolution or force your character to act in a certain way.

Any player can suggest any Compulsion. The suggestion requires the Sessioneer’s permission before it can take effect. Any character can accept or resist any Compulsion.

Compulsions are never forced on a player. This is the concept of “how much will it cost?” as compared to “can I do this?” I feel this is a very important distinction that I wanted to emphasize in ASH. The player can resist any compulsion—provided they pay the mote cost.

Note that my game encourages more player credibility than your game does. Credibility is a term I learned from this article: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/23/

Basically: my players have more influence over the “shared imagined space” or the “fiction” than they seem to in your game. This isn’t necessarily better. A “stronger” GM keeps the fiction coherent and more focused.

Also read the game “Fate”. Their idea of “aspects” inspired my “Identities”. That’s where Compulsions came from—they’re so similar that I didn’t even change the name of the mechanic!

In Föld


I’d suggest using Compulsions on a character’s CCC.

Any player can suggest any Compulsion. The suggestion requires the Sessioneer’s permission before it can take effect. Any character can accept or resist any Compulsion.

Notice that a player can suggest a Compulsion for their own character.

The Compulsion would require a CCC to Compel (so many Cs! I hate the letter C…). If the GM accepts the Compulsion then the player can choose to resist or accept the Compulsion.

If they accept then they are rewarded with extra XP for that session (the number of XP awarded can be decided later. Identities in ASH can be upgraded, so the more points in an Identity=more XP awarded).

If they resist then they must spend XP to do so.

This system of Compulsions (1) provides players with a way to control the “economy” of XP in the game and (2) an economy of XP in the game that is important and enhances the Fiction with every transaction.

Two Examples with this scenario: middle of the day during a festival on a crowded city street.

Ex 1: Condition of “poor hearing” (from a forced Body success).

Player 2: I suggest that Player 1 fails to hear the sound of guards approaching from behind. This causes him to be knocked over by their commander who tries to pick a fight with Player 1. GM?
GM: Make it happen (may explain details). Player 1, do you accept or resist?

Accepts
Player 1: I accept. (gains x number of XP and must deal with this situation).
OR
Resists
Player 1: I resist (pays x number of XP and the fiction resumes as if Player 2 never suggested the Compulsion).

Ex 2: Consequence of “hunted by magician slavers from the north”

Player 2: Player 1 introduces himself and is overheard by one of the Slavers’ hunters. The hunter approaches Player 1 and tries to lead him into an empty alley. GM?
GM: Fine (may explain details). Player 1, do you accept or resist?

Accepts or Resists…Same as above.

Summary


No racial bonuses.
Where are your 3s?
Detailed Magic Resolution
Compulsions for Föld

I help because it would truly be a shame if the English (or any language) world never saw this game completed.

And because I like problem solving design issues—the challenge is exhilarating. And the dialogue with another designer is refreshing. And your setting is really engaging… O.K. perhaps there a few reasons…

Have you begun typing a formal rulebook? Or where you just planning on copy-pasting this thread into PDF format? :P

hope this helps,

T
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Cedric
Member

Posts: 28


« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 05:05:17 AM »

Great. Let's summarize this all.

No racial bonuses. I agree at 99% for the very reason we've been talking at the beginning of the thread with the Aquaman example. But I have an issue with two of the races - the Borélians and the Élus. The Borélians guys are supposed to talk by 'telepathy', actually by using an internal telephone system. And I don't know how to put this into game terms. Maybe this should just be roleplayed without any specific skill associated to it? As for the Élus, they are the only one which can (and should) use 'divine magic'. This was my starting point with the LARP character generation. At that time, in order to balance this (and try to avoid having too much attention put on the Borélians) I came up with 'specials' for each race. Not big things, but 'prefered' skills.
Now I also hate it to be torn between the cool skill or the cool race, but here I don't know how to model this. Roleplay Borélian telepathy and allow any magic at creation - only if you're non-Élu then it will be 'demoniac' magic?

Where are your 3s? Everywhere =) but above all in the fluxes. Because, well, there is a third one besides Szerv and Élő. And this third one is indirectly responsible for demons, technology improvements and even for the ice age... Then there are 3 (official) gods, 3 (official) magic schools (the 4th one is kept secret), three major characters which can be together blamed for having made of the world the place it is now, and three dots on the "o" of Föld (on the official logo). And the so-called "White Apocalypse" took place during year 3333. But who cares ;)

Detailed Magic Resolution Let's see if we're on the same page.

Alice has the following stats:

Race: Arénienne

Body: 8
- Half deaf
- Allergic to metal

Mind: 9
- Phobia: thunder

HP: 4

Identities:
- Big brother: he raised her as a father, works as a taxi driver (relationship)
- Ancient engines: she recognizes engines for the old world as such, and knows how to make them start (experience)
- "Sure, why not?": Alice loves trying out experiments she never did before, even if they sound really weird... (Style)

Short bio: Alice was born in Aréna; their parents went on a travel and never came back. She was raised by her big brother Adam, who drives people in a 'taxi' for a living. Alice is interested in Artifacts. She found an engine that she managed to run... by powering it with thunder. This did not work well. It destroyed the engine, made Alice phobic of thunder and made her half-deaf. Alice was born as a person who is allergic to metal, but this never stopped her from experimenting by using gloves (she always wears gloves). If touched by metal matter, she starts developping an allergic reaction (the skin gets red and tickling).

Now for some die rolls:

- D20 is the Mastery die
- D10 for body and mind is the Control die
- The +-D4, D6, D8, D10 (generic name: +-DX) is the Resolution die

1- Alice tries to run faster than Adam. She rolls HP + Resolution die. If rolling higher than Adam, she wins.

2- Alice tries to trepanate a random dude for the sake of it.
- This requires a Mind Control test since this is clearly amoral
- The GM estimates this to be 'average' hence a difficulty level of 6.
- Alice invokes her "Sure, why not?" Identity, giving a +2 bonus

She rolls 7 on the Control die and 0 on the +-DX (scoring 4 (HP) + 2 (Identity) + 0 (+-DX) = 6).
- She decides to force the Control die, scoring a success. Her Mind decreases to 7.
- The trepanation is realized
- Alice's Player proposes that this gets resolved as a Consequence. The GM agrees: a kid has witnessed the scene and runs away !!

3- Alice is confronted by five guys which were summoned by the kid. She is completely helpless unless something happens NOW.
- Alice is not (yet) a conscious magic user. The GM secretly rolls a Mastery die. He scores 20 ! This is more than Body (9) + Mind (7) = 16. Alice's power has just awakened.
- The GM asks Alice to roll against a difficulty level of 8 ("difficult": there are 5 guys and it's Alice's First Time !). Alice uses a +-D10 and scores a 0, hence a total of 4.
Suddenly the air smells like ozone. Tension is palpable. As the first guy touches Alice, a lightnight bolt strucks him and bounces on all his friends. They are all shuned. Alice loses 4 HP because of the mana drain and fells unconscious. The kid gets hysterical and calls for help against the demoness !

Now questions:

- Good or bad idea to roll Control die and Resolution die at the same time? If you see that you fail the Resolution you will maybe not burn your XP on the Control, that's not necessarily a bad thing (less frustration: "I earned a Condition and still missed the Resolution !?")
- 4 = easy, 6 = medium, 8 = difficult, 10 = impossible?
- How to distinguish between the Resolution D10 and the Inhibition D10? =) (this is the reason I spoke about a D12 here, but I did miss the part where we use Body and Mind separately)
- Is it ok to let the Player choose which 'C' he earns for forcing a success?
- I'd like to 'awaken' characters to their power thanks to this hidden D20 roll. Once they will start master a power, they will start triggering it themselves. Do you share this view?
- If characters don't pay a minimum cost for the spell, in essence they can spam magic. Shall we prevent this? Normally magic causes fatigue, without the 1 HP entrance cost we are losing this aspect... (I want to keep this world as 'low fantasy' where magic is reasonably rare)
- The hidden power of the character will be linked to its intial phobia (for extra irony). Maybe triggering the phobia Condition automatically? Wait, now THIS could be the entrance cost...
- Do we need Deltas at all? I'm not so sure, it looks cool like this (but is maybe boring for the Players)
- How many MAX XP for the player at any point in time? I'd go for... three... ;)

Compulsions for Föld: Let's use Compulsions on the Conditions. Since Conditions can be at level 1 2 or 3, that will be the cost for resisting and the half-reward. No Compulsion played on the Identities, these are used only for the +2 bonus.

Rulebook: I started writing it... ten times. I have a version on google docs, another one on the google site where the character sheet is hosted and another one on a restricted google site (for GMs only). But I have a tendency to ALWAYS restart from scratch. So, now that I basically have now everything packed neatly, I will start it again ;) but do it right, once and for all... until the next update, that is.
I might start writing it in english this time, so that Forgies can tell what they think about the final outcome, and then translate it in french and ask friends to playtest the rules.
I have a test scenario which I should eventually translate in english in case playtesters from The Forge would like to give it a try. The scenario is (fun but) quite old so probably
I'll have to tweak a bit if I want to push into it opportunities to test all the rules (namely the non-written-yet one of character surf once your old dudes gets killed !)

That's about it,

  Cédric
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Thriff
Member

Posts: 68


« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 03:42:58 PM »

Cedric,

This game is sweet! Be sure to tell me if I've assumed something that you disagree with.

1.) The player should be encouraged to suggest which C to take as the result of a forced Inhibition success. Whether they have the final say or the GM does is up to you (as designer).

I’d write a rule that the character’s player decides on the C chosen. But the GM can make alterations to the choice. And all players have to agree with the final decision.

This rule prioritizes the player’s control over their own character. Then allows the GM to tailor the choice to the fiction (GM likely has best understanding of the setting). Then allows the entire group to be happy that no one PC is getting “easier” or “harder” CCCs.

2.) I don’t see much point in hiding the D20 Mastery roll. Whether the GM or the player rolls makes no difference. The target value is the same and it’s the same probability of success. Why limit the player’s interaction with the system? Perhaps I’m missing something…

3.) I don’t see any need for Deltas. Perhaps I’m missing something though…
 
4.) I agree the Compulsions should be used on the CCC. You only said Conditions (as you tend to do) but I think allowing Compulsions on Chores and Consequences will also be important. I created examples in my last post.

5.) Agreed. Identities are only used for the +2 bonus in Mundane resolution. Compulsions are not used on Identities.

Races

That is a tough decision to make.

Perhaps hedge each race with an advantage/disadvantage that is deeply embedded in the setting. That way a player won’t be too tempted by something like “+2 attack” or “+1 health”, rather they’ll have to carefully weigh the decision “these magic users are considered divine but they require a very difficult Chore (it would likey be a Chore for the Elus, right?)”

Perhaps provide telepathy that can be used over a reasonably limited distance (within vision range?) but the character’s spoken speech is choppy/un-refined?

I think the 1 racial bonus for each PC would need to be stated as a CCC. That is because the racial bonus will be predefined and I’d rather not consume one of the PC’s very few (3?) Job/Identity slots.

Apparently you do have 3s! And some more lore I’ve yet to see! :P

Rulebook

I didn’t focus on one book for a long time. I just had pages of notes all over the place. I understand the difficulty.

Deciding between beginning in English or French will be important. You don’t want to commit to doing both languages off the start. But most people (I know) won’t be able to read/provide feedback on the latter option.   

Whenever you begin writing the English copy I’d be happy to help edit and read over it.

Character Creation

Written steps of Character Creation
1.) Race
2.) 8/9 or 9/8 for Body/Mind (unless you want 10/9 or 9/10 still…?)
3.) State 3 Identities
4.) Fill in first 3 CCC
5.) Compose Biography

Sample Character Creation

Character: Alice
Player: Cedric

Race: Arénienne

HP: 4/4

Body: 8
Mind: 9
Inhibition: 17

Available XP: x/y [Where y is total XP a PC can have in a ssession]

Identities: [Will you be using Jobs/Identities or something else? I’d like to consistently use your game’s vocabulary]

1.) Elder Brother (relationship)
2.) Collector of Ancient Engines
3.) “Sure, why not?”

*The Identities shouldn’t need to be formally described. Especially under the “Identities” section. Encourage players to include Identities in their PC’s Bio, but otherwise allow them to jot down their description for the Identity somewhere else. The reason for this is that the Identity needs to be concise. The Bio must account for the Identities. And any usage of/reason for the Identity will be added in the fiction sooner or later—all those additions don’t need to be formally documented, so jot notes will do.

** Do not state what a PC is good at due to their Identity (that can be determined in-context later). Identities are a careful balance of vagueness and precision. Providing 1-2 examples in the Identity itself will skew the Identity’s applicability.

Biography: [same as your piece, re-posted for completeness purposes]

Alice was born in Aréna; their parents went on a travel and never came back. She was raised by her big brother Adam, who drives people in a 'taxi' for a living. Alice is interested in Artifacts. She found an engine that she managed to run... by powering it with thunder. This did not work well. It destroyed the engine, made Alice phobic of thunder and made her half-deaf. Alice was born as a person who is allergic to metal, but this never stopped her from experimenting by using gloves (she always wears gloves). If touched by metal matter, she starts developping an allergic reaction (the skin gets red and tickling).

*** Include the initial 3 CCC (are you insisting the initial CCC must all be Conditions?) in the Biography. These 3 can never be bought off. Even though the initial 3 CCC will have to be created before the Bio is written, the CCC should be placed after the Bio section on your CS.

**** Place CCC in a separated section on the CS. This is because there could very well be 20 of them, and they’ll likely need space to be adequately described. This will be a layout issue. Use the back of the character sheet if you’re not averse to a 2-sided CS.

Flip to Second-side!

Conditions, Chores, and Consequences [Have characters use Cd, Ch, and Cq to differentiate when completing the below list]

1.) Cd- Half-Deaf
2.) Cd- Allergic to Metal
3.) Cd- Phobia: Thunderstorms
...
20.)

All Resolution

There are 3 Different “groups” of Resolution Mechanics.

1.) Magic
2.) Inhibition
3.) Mundane (Task and Conflict)

I don’t think a player will be confused by having to use a D10 under two different circumstances. As long as the rules are clear and the group consistently refers to the Dice with their proper names there’ll be no reason for confusion.

Magic

Magic resolution takes effect when someone is trying to cast a spell. Roll 2 Die simultaneously. A D20 Mastery and a D6 Control.

I don’t think there needs to be an up-front cost to attempting magic. Consider the chart of success/fail in my last post. 50% of the outcomes do not result in a successful spell. This doesn’t mean a 50% chance of failure because that will be determined by the Difficulty (for D6 Control) and the Body+Mind “Inhibition” stat (for D20 Mastery).

This means that if characters try to spam magic they may not always succeed at the spell. This may result in them being vulnerable for a time in the fiction—a significant risk.

I would rather not force all attempts to cost 1 health. Rather, a successful spell will always cost at least 1 health (more if they fail the control) and a failed spell will cost 0 motes but make the character vulnerable for a time (dizzy, tired, distracted…).

D6 Control

This Die determines whether you will take extra damage from a successful spell. Roll above for success. There is a target value of 2, 4, or 6 based on the magical difficulty of Novice, Professional, or Masterful.

 [2/4/6 was chosen over 1/3/5 because the 2/4/6 gives (only) a 16.5% chance of success on a Masterful roll but the 1/3/5 literally has a 0% chance of failure on the Control D6. I prefer the slim chance of success on a Masterful over the guaranteed success on a Novice.]

D20 Mastery

This Die determines whether you will succeed at the spell. A target value of the Inhibition stat (Body+Mind). Roll above for success.

Control/Mastery
Success/success= spell succeeds and expend 1 health
Fail/ Success= spell succeeds and expend (Dif-D6 result) health
Success/fail= spell fails and expend 0 health
Fail/Fail= spell fails and expend 0 health

Inhibition

Inhibition resolution takes effect when someone is attempting to perform an action that is impeded by one of their CCC or the context. This roll uses 1 Die. A D10 Mind or a D10 Body.

2- Alice wants to perform trepanation (had to look that word up, I think it would be translated to surgery) on a stranger for fun.

She must roll above her Mind value of 9. [There is no need to assign a difficulty here. She cannot use an Identity to help her on an Inhibition roll.]

Success: She does it.
Failure: She doesn’t.
Failure but forced success: She does it and gains an appropriate CCC. Her Mind drops by 1.

Mundane

Mundane resolution takes effect when someone is attempting to perform a challenging task vs. a passive obstacle (likely the environment) or a conflict vs. an active obstacle (likely another character).

 This roll uses a single +-DX, where X=4, 6, 8, or 10.

Task

Gain Success Levels “SL” (ASH terminology, what will Föld use?) to match or exceed target value.

SL= Health + Identity (+2 if one is applicable) + result of single +-DX.
Difficulty=target value from 1-10

1.) Player suggests their character performs an action.
2.) Resolve Inhibition roll (if necessary)
3.) Player determines their SL based on Health and Identity (If applicable)
4.) GM considers the difficulty.
5.) Only roll if the difficulty is greater than the player’s current SL.
6.) Player chooses single +-DX and rolls. Success or failure (lose health=Difficulty-total SL)

Notice that there are many instances where a challenge is present but a roll isn’t necessary. Consider your math:

A character can naturally have 6 SL (4 for Health and 2 for Identity) right off the start! They could then choose to roll a D4 (only 25% chance of a meager -1) and still likely have their 6 SL.

This isn’t a problem. Just a precaution that needs to be stated in rules.

Task Ex

1.) Alice tries to run 15 city blocks to catch a train. This is a task because the challenge is passive. The train can’t/won’t try any harder to beat Alice.
3.) SL=health+Identity. Health of 3. No applicable Identity. SL=3+0=3.
4.) Dif of 7 [will need to find a formalized method of determining Difficulty for Mundane resolution]
5.) The Difficulty of 7 is well above Alice’s current SL of 3. A roll is necessary.
6.) Alice’s player would have to choose a +-D10 to have any chance of succeeding. If she were to do so there’d only be a 10% (needs a 10 rolled) chance of success. Pretty grim. She also runs a 20% (a 1 or 2 on the die, representing a -4 and -3 respectively) of losing all of her health (which is currently 3).

If she succeeds the action is successful. If she fails the action isn’t successful. The GM should use the degree of success (how closely she succeeded or failed) to properly narrate the consequential action.


Conflict

Gain SL=Health + Identity (+2 if one is applicable) + result of single +-DX.
Exceed your opponent’s SL for a victory.

Conflict Ex:

Alice tries to run faster than Adam. This is a Conflict because Adam is actively challenging her.

Alice SL= 3+0=3. Adam SL=2+2=4. Assume Adam has an appropriate Identity.

Alice is in a losing position. She’ll need to take a greater gamble than Adam (by choosing a bigger +-DX) in order to win.

Alice chooses a +-D6 (she doesn’t want to risk losing all of her health). Adam chooses a +-D4 (he is already ahead, but doesn’t want to risk losing all of his health).

Alice rolls a 4 and thus receives +1 SL. Adam rolls a 3 and thus receives 0 SL.

They both have 4 SL. (neither wins… and you don’t want to force a re-roll. Have both finish at the same time and continue the fiction from there)


Summary

Player chooses the CCC
Don't hide the D20 Mastery roll
No Deltas
Only Compel CCC, not Identities
Identities only used for the +2 bonus in Mundane Resolution
Have Racial Traits that are both Advantage/Disadvantage.
Magic Res: Roll D20 Mastery and D6 Control simultaneously
Inhibition Res: Do not assign Difficulty, roll D10 Mind or D10 Body
Mundane Res:
Task: Health+Identity (if applicable)+ single +-DX vs. difficulty from 2-10*
Conflict: Health+Identity (if applicable)+ single +-DX vs. same from opponent

*explained in more detail

hope this helps,

T
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Cedric
Member

Posts: 28


« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 08:59:14 AM »

Good !

I just have a few last remarks and questions, besides this I guess we're pretty much done here...

On Chores: Would you have an example of how to play Chore acquisition? I see clearly how Conditions are earned (you overdo it), same for Consequences. But how would Chores work? You're in the heat of battle. You are about to finish off your enemy. Too bad, Inhibition test failed. You force the success at the expense of a Chore. How do you explain it? Your character will suddenly say a prayer and find the force to plunge his dagger into his opponent's throat? But then, how often will the character say prayers? And what would be other examples of Chores? Drawing a pentagram before performing a specific action would sound perfectly legitimate, but back onto the example, would the character feel the sudden urge to draw a pentagram before killing the enemy?

On Mastery: Ok I explained it wrong. The Player rolls the Mastery D20. One remark though, I thought of also using current HP and the +-DX for resolution of the magic spell, versus a certain difficulty level, rather than a control die. This has the benefit to keep the rules consistent with the other types of dice roll (and also to make magic more dangerous if you're low on HP)?

Small bug about magic: a perfectly sane guy can now use magic without having any Condition. This contradicts the idea that magic users always existed but were incapacited because their condition (with a lowercase C) was seen as an illness which needs to be cured... I can find an explanation for that but it bogs me a bit.

Body and Mind Conditions: I have no problem to come with Mind Conditions, but that's another story with Body ones. Going for crippling the Character is not really the initial idea is it? Or we keep the same list of Conditions for both Body and Mind but just roll under a different stat?

Besides this I guess I'm good to go.
- If I make something up as gameplay rules for races, these will be CCCs all right
- Players will start with 3 XP, with a max of 5 at any point in time
- XP is regained by accepting Conditions
- XP can be spent in-session for doing a reroll, for adding 2 to a die roll and for using the demon's link backward
- XP can be spent between sessions for buying off C's, for buying or upgrading Identities (Relationship and Material only)
- I propose to not burn 1 XP when forcing a Control success - the earned C is already the price (?)

Upon Character death:
- New character is provided by the GM, Player can spend XP for changing things (1 XP = 1 change)
- Conditions and Chores are transfered (Consequences should also from a system perspective, but from the world's perspective does this make sense?)
- Body Mind and Mastery are also transfered
- Identites are the ones of the new character (the lost Relationship and Material will be available for re-buy with XP between sessions)

And about mundane rolls:
I thought about that: Easy task has a difficulty of 4. Medium is 6, Difficult is 8, Impossible is 10.

If your total score is negative, then you are incapacited (stunned, shoked, out of breath) by that many rounds (1 round for a -1, 2 rounds for a -2 and 3 rounds for a -3).

If you beat a difficulty level by 2 points, you get an advantage. This stacks if you beat the difficulty level by 4 or by 6 points.
Advantage is either: inflict 1 damage (if applicable) or get a +2 bonus on the next (related) +-DX roll.
If you lose to a difficulty level by 2 points, then you get a disadvantage but only if applicable. In case of conflict this is unnecessary since the other guy will get the related advantage. The disadvantage will be either -1 HP (failed climbing attempt) or the difficulty level raised by 2 points in case you want to retry (foiled needle inside key lock)

- One last point about HP...
I thought about making a distinction between 'tiredness' and 'wounds'. At full health, write four O representing the 4 HP. When you are wounded, you replace a O by a X. When tired, you replace a O by a /. You fall unconscious when no more O is available.
The / are recovered easily (don't act for 1 round for recovering one /)
The X are recovered by consuming drugs or with time.
Magic drain provokes /, verbal conflict 'damage' too?

That's all I can think about at the moment. I will definitely start writing the rules in english before repeating the exercise in french...

So:

- Examples of Chore acquisition?
- Mind Conditions versus Body Conditions?
- Magic uses +-DX
- No Deltas, but 'advantages'
- O - / - X health?

  Cédric

PS: "Trepanation" is opening one's cranium for revealing the brain - couldn't find the english word ;)
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Thriff
Member

Posts: 68


« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 11:45:18 AM »

Cédric,

(I just noticed I’ve been neglecting the hat for the “e” in your name! Sorry about that!)

It’ll certainly take you some time to mull this thread over and begin formalizing the rules in a written document, but there’ll be more to question and play with later. New questions will come up and old ideas will begin to look shakier than you first thought. And that’s fine.

I am glad that you feel confident in beginning a re-write for a pen-and-paper version. Lots of work and design decisions have been proposed and refined in his thread and I’m amazed that all these decisions were made in what, less than a week? Congratulations to you!

Glad to help and looking forward to hearing more questions from you and seeing how Föld unfolfds. Pun. :)

Chores

Nothing should be forced into the fiction unnecessarily.

A Condition or Consequence can be used in lieu of a Chore if the latter seems too convoluted. It a Chore is used as the result of a forced Inhibition success then I don’t see why it needs to take effect immediately.

Mythology behind Condition and Consequence: the cause of a Condition is when someone’s fundamental Szerv/Elo flux has been instantaneously changed in a drastic way. The cause of a Consequence is a brief pulse/blip/signal in someone’s flux that immediately repairs itself (leaving the character in tact) but the pulse has been sent outwards for others to hear/see/recognize and allows them to track the character.

The cause of a Chore is when the character’s Szerv or Elo has been permanently affected to slowly decay over time, like initiating the timer for a bomb. It doesn’t cause a drastic change in the character (like a Condition), nor does it leave the character unharmed physically and mentally (like a Consequence).

A Chore does not need to take effect immediately. I can see two strong ways of introducing a Chore, both assume that the Chore will not take effect until later in the session (likely immediately after the current scene).

(1)   The character, if they have a connection to a group/item/knowledge that would provide them with a realistic Chore, will realize that they have to resume or begin completing the Chore more often or in a stronger form This would work with Elus (I think).

Ex: Scene after acquiring the Chore. The character (perhaps loses 1 health?) is narrated as not feeling well and the character remembers the illness and knows he has to begin praying/being hypnotized again. [This will very much depend on the fiction and what is appropriate for a given character of a given race in a given situation!]

(2) The character, if they do not have a reason for a chore, can be given a vision from their demon or approached by a benevolent stranger that recognizes their need for a chore and trains or teaches them.

2a- During the scene that the character earned the chore, the GM can give the PC a brief vision/voice (perhaps as a riddle?) that tells the PC what they will need to do to repair the decay of their Szerv or Elo flux.

2b- After the scene the character encounters an NPC (a priest, mystic, crazy old wizard…) that either directly or mistakenly shows the PC what they must do to repair the ever-present decay of their Szerv or Elo flux.

A Chore should be played as an ever-present threat that encourages the player to fulfill the Chore’s requirements (under threat that they gain a Condition or lose health?)

Magic Resolution

You’ve got 3 very simple resolution mechanics. I don’t think you’re under any pressure to alter them to be more alike. They’re all simple and it will always be very clear when to use which resolution mechanic.

 I don’t think there’s a strong enough reason to use health+single +-DX instead of a Control die.

As for making it more dangerous… I’m not seeing it. Could you explain with an example to show me why you’re thinking that?

Lack of Conditions

If you’ve selected the 8/9 or 9/8 split for Body/Mind at character creation then you can force all PCs to begin with 3 Conditions. These 3 cannot be bought off with XP. So every PC will have at least 3 Conditions all the time, no matter what.

If you need your PCs to have more Conditions then that then simply write a rule that says “At least half of a PCs’ CCC must be Conditions”. I wouldn’t write a rule like that, but you have a better idea of the setting and your goals for the game, so you may want to. Dunno. I think it will unfold perfectly fine naturally (without such a rule).

Body Conditions

I think Mind Conditions are generally more painful for the player than Body Conditions (my player perspective). At least a player can anticipate how their Body Conditions will affect the character, Mind Conditions are far more subjective and can get a character in a lot more trouble. As long as the character’s ability to move around isn’t too severely hindered I don’t see Body Conditions as being far “worse” for the player. Ya, “crippled spine” isn’t a fun Condition. Nor is “fingerless”. But that’s not what I meant. I’m thinking “poor hearing”, “colour blind”, “aching knees”, “everything tastes like chicken”.

Can you re-word this please? I didn’t understand it “Or we keep the same list of Conditions for both Body and Mind but just roll under a different stat?”

Inhibition Resolution

I don’t recall either of us saying that a player must spend 1 XP to force a success on an Inhibition D10 roll (of Body or Mind). Sorry if I missed that. Ya, I’d agree there’s no reason to charge them for acquiring a CCC.

Character Death

A lot of the fun for me as a RPlayer is that I get to make my character. Having pre-determined PCs is a great way to speed up play but I don’t think players should be charged for changing their character.

Charging a role-player to customize their role-playing character so that they can role-play a character they want to role-play doesn’t make sense. It would likely be a major deterrent for many potential players.

Having pre-determined characters that players can choose from and customize is a great idea! Just drop the 1 XP=1 change price.

Yes transferring Consequences makes sense from a world perspective. The Consequence [Just added this] leaves the PC unharmed but also leaves a tracer/marker/identifier on them. So when a PC dies this marker is also transferred over. This means that everyone hunting/wanting to find the previous PC will automatically begin searching for the new one.

Yes I think the new PC should get new Identities. Otherwise the player is playing the exact (literally) same character!

Mundane

I don’t think easy/medium/difficult/impossible of 2/4/6/8 is most effective.

Mathematically the player will (very likely) never roll for an Easy task. This is because they will already exceed it by simply have full health of 4. An easy task would only ever need to be rolled if the character has 1 health and no applicable Identitiy. Medium won’t need to be rolled for the same reason. Difficult, same, if full health and an Identity.

I know they won’t always have full health but it just seems like a mis-placed emphasize from a design perspective. If I/we/you as the designer know that an “easy” difficulty will almost never be rolled, why bother labeling it?

Your game is easy because the initial “bunch” of SL [you haven’t proposed an alternative for this term, is Föld using this term as well? It’s perfectly fine if you want it to] can be quickly seen by looking at a character’s Health+Identity. Your game is unique (so far as I can recall) in that the player chooses which single die to roll. This means that a static difficulty curve of 2/4/6/8 doesn’t mean as much as deciding what a character will have to risk (which die to choose) to succeed.

I think of it as a slippery difficulty curve over a static one. In both cases the GM has to consider the situation and decide on a difficulty. In the static difficulty scenario He will very rarely even need to think about Easy or Medium due to the character already having those SL. Yes you can get the player to roll to see if they go above and gain bonuses… But I’d (as a designer and player) rather just get on with the story. Thus the GM really only has static difficulties (that will need to be interpreted in-context) of Difficult and Impossible.

I’d rather use the slippery difficulty system where the GM thinks (primarily) about which die the PC will have to choose to succeed, and state a target value based off of that. This way the GM is phrasing the target value based on the situation. Always. They must consider the Health+Identity before even calling for a roll.

Perhaps this is a preference thing. I don’t feel I can adequately argue that this is a change which really really should be implemented, but I know I’d write the rules from a slippery perspective over a static perspective for this particular resolution system.

HP

Tiredness/Wounds makes sense. I just don’t know if it provides more than it costs (in having to perform the accounting details). I suspect this is you trying to get a cool idea (likely one you’ve carried for a while) into your game. That’s fine. But from looking back at ASH I can see how my compulsion to retain everything cool bit me in the butt.

I don’t see any need for Tiredness/Wounds or too many benefits from having it. What will it allow players to do that they couldn’t do before? Does it allow the setting to be better represented? I’m not saying scrap it, I just don’t see why it is important.

Summary

Good job to you sir!
Chores are repair-work on one's flux
No need to change Control D6
All PCs have at least 3 Cd at all times
Body Conditions are fine
Agreed, don't charge 1XP for forced Inhibition success
Have pre-made new PCs, do not charge 1XP for alterations
Not 2/4/6/8 for Mundane difficulty, details above
Dunno about Tiredness/Wounds, details above
Post more questions/ideas any time!

I hope this helps you Cédric,

T



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Cedric
Member

Posts: 28


« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2011, 04:15:01 AM »

Thanks again Thriff for everything, including for these good points coming with your latest post on this thread.
Next step now for me is to start writing everything up and doing some simulations before submitting it to the Community for playtesting and feedback !

One of my friends pointed me to an interesting system aiming at simulating slasher movies, I'm sure it can be used to further simplify the current ideas.
If anyone is interested, it's called 'Sombre Light' - I did not find any english version though.

So ! I'll make sure to open a new thread as soon as I feel on track. And I probably won't resist the pleasure to read and comment on The Forge !
And no worries about the hat on the 'e', I'm the one who did not dare register with a username which contains non-US characters ;)

Talk to you soon,

  Cédric
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