[Föld] "moral inhibitions" system?
Thriff:
Cedric,
Don’t apologize for me not recognizing the written rules were for LARP. If I had been more alert I would have realized that because you had said as much.
For 2, 3, 5 I was ignorant of LARP practices. Thanks for letting me know.
2.) Agreed.
3.) Same concern exists: every 1 hit (from any source) causes the exact same damage? This may or may not be a problem. That depends on the purpose of your game. From a designer/GM/player POV. Why are you creating/playing this game?
Here is where I shuffle you deeper into Forge philosophy. These articles, and others, have really helped me focus my game how I wanted it.
Check out Ron Edwards’ GNS Theory wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory) or on the Articles page of this site (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/). Search for Gamism, Narrativism, and Simulationism on the latter link. Here is a direct link with a direct explanation of the terms (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/3/).
Mutilated summary for the 4 hit point issue: Gamism- Does my better sword act as a better sword and deal more damage than a lesser sword? Narrativism- Does a loss of 1 hit point affect the story? How so, and to what extent? Simulationism- How is the wounded character different in the fiction? Is it consistent with the rules of this world?
4.) Changing (or removing) the 3 minutes unconscious will largely depend on your GNS purpose here. Gamists would likely prefer a numerical value as determined by their skills vs. their target's skills. Narrativists would likely want a narrative unit of time such as end of conflict/scene/session. Simulationists would likely want a time that is reasonable based on the game's fiction.
Again, don't take my short-form as complete. Read the articles.
5.) 1 job seems too limited. Likely to get one-dimensional characters with only that. But I agree in principle. A single word/phrase/sentence that the player can draw on to get bonuses to do “stuff”. My system is based off of Fate Aspects.
Go find/read about Fate Aspects (and Compelling in that game) and/or The Pool (it's free I think). I think they will help ease you into designing a "job" system.
Note: A new character involves a new physical description and social backstory. It won’t be as easy as “name job, switch over conditions, go”.
I’ve found it is very important to bind the PCs to other PCs and the environment. Elsewise the players (if inexperienced, uncreative, or simply unenthusiastic) will feel segregated from the game.
6.) Ya, injuries (so far) don’t seem necessary. This is also hinged on your GNS interpretation.
1.) Probably just the French-english translation, but what do you mean by “with an overall almost out-of-reach backstory”? I interpreted that to mean that the world is unique and original so players won’t be able to assume they know details about the setting (as they can in a elves/dwarves/ogres... setting). And so far as I can tell, yes your setting is unique and original. And I, and I suspect many others, appreciate that.
Note: It is especially cool that everyone emits this magical liquid. True it's not "new" on a historical scale. Refer to Elan Vital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital) if it were applied to all matter. Or, more scientifically, to Entropic Decay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy) which basically says stuff gets disorganized over time. This also reminds of the usage of "aether/ether" in many video games and movies/books/comics.
The similarities to your setting are not a bad thing! Just wanted to offer some references for further insights.
Excellent. I hadn't thought that single Conditions could simply be made worse. Makes perfect sense.
I know this is your game. I know you've played it for 3 years. I don't mean to intrude or devalue your decisions.
But I am seeing a disconnect within your mythology. And I think others have said as much in this thread. Here's the problem:
Current: The more crazy my character (i.e. the more mental Conditions they possess) the more powerful they are at magic. Justified because they can see what others can't because they are uninhibited by social/moral standards.
New: The more Virtuous my character (i.e. the less inhibited my Virtue Traits) the more powerful they are at magic. Justified because they are less vice-like, such as their less enlightened peers.
I think this solves a few problems.
1.1 The characters aren't getting better at something because they are getting crazier. That doesn't even make sense intuitively. My experience with the mentally unstable is that they are over-all less effective at daily (and magical) tasks.
1.2 Characters get better at magic (a fundamental force in this world) because they are becoming better people. They are getting better in a very specific way. They are becoming more Temperant/Moderate/Balanced people--they are becoming Virtuous. I like that both aesthetically and philosophically. This focus centers the game on players attempting to encourage their characters to become more virtuous. This also begs the gameplay features you wanted--observing characters struggle with doing the right thing in a cruel world.
But what about Conditions? This is where it gets better.
Current: I act against my nature and thus inherit a detrimental mental Condition.
New: My virtues are naturally inhibited, but I have made a virtuous decision and have thus been punished with a detrimental mental/social Condition.
1.3 Your world's mythology is now ingrained in your system.
Let the demons using/toying with the characters do the punishing. The demons intentionally afflict the characters for being Virtuous.
I've inferred this, so forgive any misinterpretation: Your world is cold, bleak, cruel. Everything is constantly decaying and releasing energy. There are demons that control/possess/curse humans. Why not say these demons are the root cause of the world's decay? And that every character (NPC or PC) has a demon afflicting it. The demons do not want virtuous characters running amok so they initially inhibit people socially or mentally but are able to actively burden/curse the people with Conditions if the person attempts to act too Virtuous.
The Demons are using/toying with people, and this shows in the major mechanic of your game: the Inhibited Virtues and their necessary rolls.
1.4 Players are rewarded for acting Virtuously, despite their characters being punished for it.
All PCs begin with Inhibited Virtues, but the players are rewarded (by having more narrative control--succeeding at rolls-- and by stronger magic) for striving to become less Inhibited. The characters struggle to act Virtuously, but are then cursed with a Condition for doing so. Thus the players (and perhaps characters eventually) are making a conscious sacrifice to act Virtuously, knowing they will be cursed with a mental Condition.
1.5 Darker Mood
The characters aren't just cowards that turn into crazy courageous cowards. The characters are now vice-like, petty, shallow, ignorant people that turn into Virtuous and enlightened cursed people. The mood of punishment and cruelty seems stronger when Conditions are punishments instead of natural consequences.
It seems like an eye-for-an-eye setting.
Demon: "Sure you can get better at magic and make consistently better decisions, you'll just have to pay the cost of accepting whatever detrimental Conditions I give you."
It feels aesthetically rewarding making the virtuous choice especially knowing you'll be punished for it regardless. That strikes me as a true tragic world.
1.6 Easier
Demons can inflict curses in roundabout ways. You don't have to worry so much about the psychology or "real-world" implications of the Conditions. Of course it would be best to attempt to make the Condition a natural consequence of the action that provoked it--but you've got some magical leeway now.
1.7 It makes sense
Thus you aren’t getting better at magic because you’re really scared of the dark. You’re getting better at magic because you are a more virtuous (balanced/moderate/temperant) person than those around you.
Until you give me further notice I’m straying toward “characters begin vice-like and petty yet grow in virtues over time, due to this growth they are cursed/punished/afflicted with mental/moral/social conditions that hinder their activities (by the demon that is toying with their soul across countless generations and innumerable bodies?)” as opposed to our previous “if a player forces a character to do something that the character otherwise couldn’t, then the character inherits a mental/social disorder for acting unnaturally”. Maybe every character (and object?) in the world has a demon but the PCs are the only characters willing to sacrifice enough to rise above their demonic shackles.
7.) Roll when the GM (I assume you have someone in that role) thinks it necessary. Or when a player thinks it necessary. This will depend on the power differential between GM and players in your system.
[Help I recall reading an article (I'm sure it was on this site) that discussed narrative control between player and GM. I can't recall the terminology or the article name. If someone knows please notify me so I can properly document it as an important article. Thanks.]
No, each action does not require 3 rolls. That would be tedious and over-burdening. Unless that’s the play you want… (it seems, oddly, that some people do). I would suggest only the most important one for necessary situtations.
I see your update of Courage (physical), Integrity (social), Self-Esteem (emotional). I like that you've tied them to different types of damage, it helps organize them. However, after reading your position I (but I don't quite matter cause it's your game) would stick with Welfare, Discernment, and Fortitude.
First I'll refine my 3 suggested terms and then I'll compare them to your 3 suggested alternatives.
7.1 Perhaps it's best to change the order to Discernment, Welfare, and Fortitude. This is because Discernment is rolled to identify (information), Welfare is rolled to initiate (action), and Fortitude is rolled to quit/persist (action). Usually decision-making follows the DWF chronology, not WDF chronology.
Note: DWF are better titles than IIP because we're less considered about "when to roll" as we are "what virtue is necessary here".
Welfare considers more than personal safety and personal greed.
Ex: I make a character that has a code of honour to not hit females. This is actually a good thing, but can impair a Welfare judgment. "Good is the greatest enemy of Greatness".
The character is in a situation where there is a female dictator that has done terrible things and is poised to do terrible things and has frequently said as much. Really terrible things. And she won't stop without bloodshed. Morality isn’t the question here. The greater good is served by stopping her. But the problem (the Welfare roll) is whether the character can overcome their personal desire/vow/personality trait to do what is ethical on a larger scale. Will the character be able to harm/kill this dictator? Roll Welfare.
Ex: Superheroes. Spiderman and Mary Jane. Superman and Lois Lane. Batman and, err… Robin? Will the character sacrifice their personal friendship/romantic interests for the sake of the greater good?
That’s welfare. It stretches beyond simple courage or personal safety. It is called into question when a character is able to recognize the ethical choice of self-sacrifice for the greater good (whatever that may be in a given situation). Welfare doesn't require immediate (or potential) physical (or other) danger. Welfare is the virtue of doing what is right for the whole.
Your Welfare example of a blizzard and a town building a fence in defence (haha, why would a fence stop a blizzard btw? :P) Perfect ex though.
Successful roll: Guy recognizes the need and helps out.
Failed roll: Character doesn't help. Gets shunned. This causes problems for him later. Does he do anything to try and fix the situation, I dunno that's up to him. But the town dislikes him now.
Failed roll, XP spent: He normally wouldn't go out of his way to help (due to his laziness, alcoholism, fear of crowds..) but chooses to in this case. He has acted Virtuously and is now punished with a Condition of an increased desire for laziness, alcoholism, or fear of crowds (as applicable) or any other relevant Condition that will hinder him.
His short term virtuous act results in a long-term Condition. He does a good thing, gets better at magic, and is cursed with a Condition.
Discernment is more of identifying informtaion than it is making a good decision. It limits or broadens the information available to characters.
Ex: You are a shepherd sitting in on a town council meeting. The mayor of your small village wants to spend the last 48 hours before the blizzard constructing a wall around the inner village. Does your character a.) recognize that the mayor is being greedy and only defending himself, or b.) notice that other shepherds recognize that this plan will ruin their farms and livelihoods because they will be forced to spend their time building a wall, or c.) observe that the mayor’s assistant is smiling mischievously and deduce (from your world-awareness) that the mayor’s assistant has manipulated the mayor into making this decision for some unknown reason.
That example seems muddled. But basically Discernment provides characters an opportunity to notice useful information or have useful memories/knowledge available.
Fortitude doesn't force the character to act dumb. Failing a Fortitude roll requires the character to make a dumb choice by giving up too early/late. Whether that means trying too hard on something worthless or giving up too easy on something of value.
7.2 Compare Discernment, Welfare, Fortitude to Courage, Integrity, Self-Esteem.
Ex 1: I want to solicit the king to free my neighbour’s slaves.
Old: Is this physical, social, or emotional dmg at risk? The king could behead me for my insolence (arrogance in asking). Or socially ostracize (devalue) me. Or I may be too shy to ask such a thing of anyone, let alone the king. So perhaps I risk emotional grief.
New: This would be a Welfare roll because I am concerned about another’s well being. I want to Initiate an action. I may have needed a Discernment roll to learn that my neighbour had slaves. And I may need a Fortitude roll to continue attempting to free them once I learn that my neighbour would burn down my house in retaliation if he loses his slaves.
Ex 2:The Winter Ritual hasn’t been completed and everyone that has tried has been killed this year. The Ritual is very important to our village for religious reasons. Only males can attempt it. You are a female that has snuck out on pretense of being male and you are running out of food. Should you turn back now or continue?
Old: Physical, threat of injury/death. Social, you are a female considering doing a man’s job in a man’s society (assumed). Or scared of ridicule for failure. Emotional, Fear of: freezing to death, mauled by wolf to death, starving to death. Or lack of self-confidence. Or too self-centered to consider it.
New: This is a Fortitude roll. You need to decide if it’s worth it to complete your task or turn home. I likely needed a Discernment roll to learn who to go to/what to do to pass as a male for the Ritual. I certainly needed a Welfare roll to embark on such a dangerous mission for the good of the village.
Summary:
I really like the originality of your world mythology and your focus on moral choices in a cruel setting.
I think I recall reading that you have different races. Could you translate some basic details of each please?
I don't have my game online anywhere. I am currently preparing it (and focus questions) for online discussion. I (very much) appreciate that you're interested in reading it. I'll try to get it (or some fraction of it) online soon.
As of now I'd suggest reading those links I sent you.
Oh! And keep posting questions here, I like this brainstorming. It was a real treat to read and respond to your post today.
T
Cedric:
He he, I really will spend the remaining time of my lunch break for writing an answer (damned it actually 18h30 now, took longer than expected). I will for sure continue posting here, I'm only too glad I can finally talk to people and confront points of view - that's the best way I know for moving on.
So, let's go:
About G/N/S: thanks for the links ! I read some articles on this theory in french as well so I'm not entirely new to the topic (I namely read a translation of the "System Does Matter" article http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html, referenced from the wikipedia article and wherefrom I found out that The Forge exists !) - I won't claim I master it though ;)
Still, I guess I am more of an N-type. I dislike heavy rules that slow down the story flow, I don't like overspecialization which turn character skills into full libraries. I also don't like it when the success or failure of a critical action is purely based on a dice roll (and did I mention that I'm particularly unlucky with dies? ;))
That's probably why I'm not that much concerned that a sword does equal damage than an axe or a dagger. In my narrow-minded view, I see it more as a mean to say: "ok, what weapon you carry does not matter, now can we go on with the story and stop trying to optimise stats?". It's also a confession that I'm probably not able to come up with a balanced system, I just can't think "powergaming" hard enough...
About job system: will do the reading, promised ! Meanwhile, just some more words about the system I have in mind (by the end of this topic thread, I will have no more secrets for you ;)) which is about 'contacts'. By this I mean social network.
Since XP won't be spent in making your character stronger, I thought of 'buying' relationship upgrades. One XP for a simple contact, 3 for a close friend, etc. Of course this will have to be consistent with how the game goes and you won't be able to turn your enemy into your best friends in a single go (with the occasional exception for say love/hate relationships).
The twist being that upon death, the new character will have the possibility to link again to his old contacts. Good luck explaining to your wife that it's really you (where actually it won't - the new guy will just inherit mixed memories from the other one(s)...)
About my weird french-english sentence: you got the idea :p (I was not sure how to write it - and it's not a translation problem since while in 'english' mode I don't think in french... most of the time)
About the magic liquid: thanks for the references ! Also, I was influenced here by a video game (Final Fantasy VI, not that it matters much) where magic is not restricted to the frail wizard but can be mastered by everybody. Which is good here, since magic is so damn powerful. During the LARP sessions, nobody complained about the powerful magic since they could also learn it eventually ;)
Now some more details about magic and demons: I need to give you more insights about what demons and magic really are, and why I don't see at the moment how to mix this background with the Virtuous concept - that I find really interesting, by the way. What's left is 'simply' to find how to make both aspects work together...
- People emit magic liquid. And when they don't control it consciously (e.g. what happens 99% of the time), they still influence it inconsciously - with their beliefs, doubts and fears. Demons are created that way. The more believers, the stronger the demons (strong in the sense of 'better defined personality traits and autonomy', versus 'roaming blurry creature with no consciousness'). Demons are like humans, they have their own motives, and most of them are not even aware that the 'human world' exists (or that they are a demon). Actually, they don't have any intrinsic evil nature, they are just beings. Also, the rules of magic apply to them in the same way (they decay and generate their own 'liquid') than humans, so they cannot do everything to the Player Characters.
The demons which manipulate the Player Characters are such beings which have their own personal goal (which demon will be associated to which Player will be an initial setup phase, possibly aligning the Player's interests with the demon's goal) and that, as already mentioned, see and ear through humans, one at a time. An example of such a demon is the 'demon of robots' (sounds better in french ;)) which is entrapped underground. He feels loneliness and wants to break free. He also knows that if he does nothing, then people will forget him (what are robots anyway?) and stop 'materializing' him with their 'liquid'. His goal will be as such to manage people to find his spot and to start digging.
Once free on the world he will not necessarily behave as a tyrant though.
Just to say that punishing humans for being vertuous is not necessarily in their own interest.
- Föld is planet Earth in year 4000 something. And the justification for magic is that in order to manipulate the fluids, you need to 'loosen control' on yourself. This can be achieved by two means: very strong indoctrination, or getting insane. As of today (2011), we don't have magic users because 1- the sect gurus never achieved such indoctrination on people (they would need first to believe in magic themselves) and 2- mental disorders are seen today as pathologies, and such people are shun with medicine and isolated. There is the occasional magic user among them, but this is always rationalized away (it was an accident, man I'm getting crazy too, it was just a dream, etc.)
So my main issue is now: how to justify that vertuous people in year 4000 can master magic, where in 2011 no-one was able to? It is also important that this does not get explained by a Deus Ex Machina (such as contact with aliens in year 3020 ;)) since one of the main ideas is to say: "We learn by doing trial-and-errors. We adopt a theory until we discover something new that makes it wrong." The full magic stuff (and existence of 'demons') is supposed to have always existed, only we never understood it so far.
Last, about the different races: there are half a dozen of races available. They are all humans (almost :p) since they all are our own descendants. Still, there was a cataclysm in year 3333 (where calendar was reset to 0) and survivors organized themselves in small autonomous groups for the next 400 years, thus creating differences (mostly cultural). I guess I'll keep the reasons why the cataclysm took place for later, let's just say that demons played a very small role in it.
- Frontaliers ("men from the border") is a generic term for the plethora of small groups living at (one) border of the known world. They live mostly in the mountains, where the weather is a bit better. They possess the best fields and are good with growing plants and domesticating animals. Their elders are highly respected and are seen as mentors for everyone.
- Aréniens (guys from Arena, the known world's biggest town) built a city (Arena) on top of ruins of one of the 'ancient world''s cities. They survived by repairing and customizing old artifacts that they don't really understand. There are lots of underground tunnels under the city which provides shelter during violent storms. Since they are in the middle of the world and have all these cool gadgets, they became relatively rich once transportation was established. They live in a democracy and are good diplomats.
- Itinérants ("wanderers") live into strange city-boats that float above the ice. They possess a handful of such boats and are known as the best way to travel (if not the only not-too-dangerous way) between cities. They are messengers and also highly suffer from consanguinity (thus breeding lots of weird guys who become able to move the boat with magic ;) - This is one of their (shameful) secrets)
- Borélians (guys from Boréalis, a city which appeared from nowhere and is looking like cristal towers) are really weird guys. Actually (big secret !) they are androids (think: T-1000 from Terminator) but with a human 'soul' (they are not programmed, there is a human mind in there) which are not aware of their own nature. They are good with blades and are really afraid because they can't seem to get children. As such, each life is really precious for them - don't think a borélian will happily rush into battle.
- Létara (girls from Létar, a floating city, (secret) actually a spaceship...) is an all-female clan. Well not entirely, but female are shadowing males completely. They are good at arts (dancing, painting, also tatoos) and have a reputation of assassins. There is also an in-game reason why this clan exists ;) and how they ended up in this ship in the first place.
- Élus ("chosen ones" - they chose this name themselves) are wizards. One of the main characters of the universe (a very unstable guy who is, like the Player Characters, transferred from body to body because a very powerful demon is in love with him and basically 'maintains' him) developed this group from scratch. His technique is to kidnap kids in which he sees potential for magic usage, and to indoctrinate them and hypnotize them until they reveal their power. This is not without consequences.
The Élus' mission is to track and kill demonists - understand magic users who are not Élus. This sounds arbitrary but actually, since the magic users are ax-crazy, this is not such a bad thing to do. And since the PC will eventually become demonists...
- Céphyrans (guys from Céphyra, a remote city) live in a city which is governed by a demon (unbeknownst to them). This demon tries to understand her true nature, why the cataclysm took place and how to make the world a better place. In order to do this, she made up her own city in which she experiments (in a not-so-nice way) on her subjects. Besides this, this city is probably the most advanced in terms of 'new' technology. These guys namely master guns. Céphyra is a
city which is beyond the known limits of the world map; the city was discovered during one of the LARP events. I did not decide yet if in the table RPG version the timeline should start in 713 (before Céphyra was discovered) or in 718 (after the events of the LARP).
There are two extra races which were introduced during the LARP sessions, but they are not as developed (background-wise) than those seven. One race is Pillards ("raiders") who are outlaws from Aréna and living just outside the city (and under it). They are a mix of real bad guys together with clever guys a bit 'too clever' for the politicians from Aréna...
The last race are Mutants (well, mutants) who actually come from one of the old cities which survived the cataclysm, but where the people suffer from a strange illness which eats the brain. Paradoxally they are the ones with whom to talk if you want to understand the past...
Let's assume that this will be enough writing for today :)
Summary: magic was released as people stopped restraining the mentally challenged. Can this be made compatible with the Virtuous approach?
Hope you (still) like the ideas and that we'll find a convergence point for the inhibition system !
Cédric
Thriff:
Cedric,
I really enjoy that your world has such a rich history.
That's absolutely fine that you'll allow a dagger to do as much damage as an axe! I'm glad you've communicated that to me (us), because it really helps focus the purpose of your system.
Question I should have asked earlier: are you building an infinite or a finite rpg (terms I use)? An infinite rpg is designed to continue endlessly, for months or decades in real-time. A finite rpg is designed to complete within a specified number of real-time sessions (often 1). I am assuming it's the former, but thought I'd clarify.
Must your players work and travel together? Or are the PCs able to go their own ways on solo adventures (within a group session) and actively work against one another? This is an important question that affects the players' experience and the designer's system choices.
XP So, as far as I understand, players can spend XP to force their character to act virtuously/do something against their nature, remove a mental Condition they've acquired from doing the former, and purchase a friend.
What about dons/competencies (gifts/knowledge in english?)? Can they be bought or upgraded? Can maximum health be increased beyond 4? These aren't things that need to be improved with XP (it actually makes sense that you've not mentioned them yet, considering you're more focused on the moral/relationship aspects of the game--generally more story related than skills or health). Just wondering if you intended for players to improve these stats.
Magic System You say "magic is so damn powerful", but how powerful is it? What can characters do with magic and how is the magic system organized? What are the schools of magic, magic resource that is spent, cooldown periods? I suspect you'll want to link many of these answers to the answer to the Inhibition Traits that sparked this.
Magic Setting
So one person can fear something and thus create a demon. Then as soon as anyone else fears the same (or similar) thing the demon becomes better defined. The first person could then enjoy something and thus create a second demon? And over time the population of believers determines the demon's ability to act autonomously and cohesively? May be repititious, but just ensuring I understand exactly.
So does an insane person (who has loosened themself) recognize the magic fluid (do you have a name for it?) and demons? Or just the fluid?
What can demons actually do? This will likely stem from the answer to "what does magic do". Are demons naturally loosened such that they can see the magic fluid (and manipulate it)? They don't seem to directly control humans (as in your robot example), so do they use subtle suggestions and alteration of chance... or what?
I like your setting's fusion of magic and tech. magic fluid/demons and robots/spaceships/aliens all roaming about (generally) oblvious to their natures.
Races
Really like how quickly you broke from cliche! Each of the races seems to fill a necessary niche and carry a tantalizing backstory. (And I didn't read the word "elf" anywhere! YAY!)
Curious. Are Itinérants linked to Mercury/Hermes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28mythology%29) the Roman/Greek god of messengers and trade?
Are Létara linked to Leto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto) a female Goddess in Greek myth that was mother to Artemis/Diana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis)--the Goddess that lived among pure-female groups that were dedicated hunters?
The descriptions seemed to match well with mythological figures so I figured I'd hazard a guess. If I'm wrong then at least you have more references to read!
Not much else for me to really say about the Races. I like them. I think they're cool. Normally I avoid systems where my character's appearance/skills/beliefs are pre-determined by their race; but here I feel rewarded, rather than limited, by the backstory of each race. I think that's simply because the races are engaging! (FYI Létara and Élus pique my interest as a player).
Immersion
Just a list of questions that I believe any setting designer should consider. I don't expect answers here, just wanted to air them.
What is the scope of your world's geography like? An immersion issue that often shuns me away from games is that they have many diverse races that have been raised in isolation from one another but are capable of speaking perfectly fluently with one another. Another logical problem: simple geographical distance. Which races are easily accessible? Which ones live together, and where?
And perhaps the biggest issue is racial relations. Are these races willing to work together? Does this limit the players' choices of races at character creation? And if players choose all different races will they be forced to deal with in-world (simulationist) ramifications of having to (frequently) justify their desire to work together?
Inhibitions
Here is a very innspiring quote I found on wikipedia (sparked by my recollection of greek myth). From the Dionysus/Bacchus page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchus).
"whose wine, music and ecstatic dance frees his followers from self-conscious fear and care, and subverts the oppressive restraints of the powerful."
(This idea also appears on the Dionysian Mysteries page (Dionysian cults of ancient Greece) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries)
This seems more in line with what you're striving for than virtues. Your issue began with inhibitions, as opposed to virtues. I did (and still do) naturally associate the two, but let's not allow that to bias your game.
[Note: "Associated" in the sense that a non-virtuous person is simply inhibited, and thus an inhibition is rooted in the lack of a character's ability to express their Virtues.}
It's just difficult (philosophically) for me to agree with the "something that betters the person (freeing themself from inhibitions) naturally causes them to suffer a detrimental Condition" perspective.
Granted, I also really like that you're using a post-apocalyptic earth, striving for universal rules applying to now as then (this magical fluid and demons), and that you're appreciating the (historically) socially excluded mentally unstable.
It seems you've conflated "mentally challenged"-ness with magic powers. Before you had said that non-inhibited/loosened people are good magicians. One can be non-inhibited without being crazy. You've said that Elus is able to hypnotize children into becoming better magicians. But hypnosis (in the sense I am considering) is not identical with "make someone crazy". Perhaps that's how you're thinking of it.
Regardless, I am now going to stray away from the Virtues set-up. (Refer back to it or use it as-is any time you'd like). I am moving away from it to focus on the key-word you've been repeating: Inhibition. You mention morality/ethics but your (and your setting's) main concern seems to be individuals uninhibited by social constraints.
New Inhibition Mechanic
Have a universal Inhibition trait on a 0-20 scale. Characters will begin somewhere between 15 and 18 (beginning with a 10%-25% success probability). If a character would normally be unable to make a difficult (but good) decision due to their inhibitions then they must roll their Inhibition stat. If they roll above their stat they are able to do it. If they fail they are not able to proceed with the good decision. If they fail but the player spends 1 XP then the character proceeds as if they had succeed the roll.
The fail-spend XP option must carry negative effects. Until now we've both operated under the assumption that these effects must be mental deficiencies.
The effects now fall into 3 categories of Conditions, Consequences, and Chores.
Conditions can be harmful beliefs/doubts/fears/emotions/phobias that are situation-specific. Same as before.
Consequences are narrative in nature. Consider: the character's Inhibition trait has just decreased (permanently, unless XP is later spent), thus they are less inhibited. This results in them being better at magic--and likely drawing the attention of other magic-wielding forces in your setting. Demons and Elus (and others like him) come to mind.
Perhaps the Consequence is that the character must deal with assassins that have been sent after them. Or they meet someone trying to recruit them to a mysterious cause. Or someone wants to kidnap and use their powers.
These narrative consequences don't have to be obvious or immediate. (great for story building and expanding the fiction!)
Ex: Character spends XP to decrease Inhibition stat. After the conflict (physical or verbal!) the character meets 3 new NPCs. The player knows that one, all, or none (perhaps the consequence has yet to befall him) of them have negative intentions.
Chores tie in your mythology. You mentioned Elus can hypnotize children into becoming better magicians. Perhaps these adults require hypnosis every couple of hours/weeks/months to maintain their skills. Or perhaps a magician requires a drug/substance to maintain their powers, and must therefore constantly make/purchase this substance. Or participating in a wild dance (such as Dionysus quote) at a secret location with a select group of people. The Chore may be a daily habit such as not eating meat, only waking at noon, uninterupted prayer at sunrise and sunset, or any number of other responsibilities.
Each Race could have preferred Chores that the characters are able to explore. The lower one's Inhibitions the more drastic the Chore becomes.
This CCC model is far more flexible. It encourages story-building and adds mechanical significance to your setting. It is easier to use than the Discernment, Welfare, Fortitude or the Courage, Integrity, Self-Esteem mechanic. You'd have to use a d20 as opposed to a d10, but I don't see any reason why that should be too big of a hurdle.
I recognize you really want the characters to be mentally unstable, so how about this: use the first 2-5 points (recall the chars start somewhere between 16 and 18) for some spread of Conditions, Consequences, and Chores. Perhaps a 3-1-1 spread respectively.
Historical accuracy is maintained in that magicians in 2011 have so many Conditions and Chores that they only seem incapable of performing magic.
Summary
Dunno if you've noticed but I refine the idea as the post continues. So prioritize statements made latter in the response (especially the summary!) in case of a discrepency.
Great Setting. Infitie/Finite? Group/Solo? What is XP spent on? What can magic do/how is it organized mechanically? How do Demons influence the setting? Great Races. Consider the Immersion questions of Language, Accessibility, and Co-operation.
New Inhibition: Scale of 0-20, begin between 16 and 18. Roll above: success, do what you want. Roll below: failure, don't do what you want or acquire a Condition, Consequence, or Chore if you've failed but spend an XP to proceed anyway.
Hope this helps.
T
Thriff:
Cedric,
Check out Stefoid's Ingenero.
It aligns with your narrative emphasis and is easily adaptable to your setting.
It has a clever and effective "job" system of Proficiencies and Signature Plays, which is a course-then-fine method of differentiating characters. The Signature Plays are what really make this system shine.
Body and Soul may be akin to what you're seeking in your Inhibition traits. Thus an inhibition may be (ultimately) rooted in a Bodily or Soul-y reason. [Note:I would still suggest the mechanic I created in the last post (biased, duh), but this one may spark an insight.]
The fundamentals of the conflict system (barring execute, target, cross--which collectively seem too detailed for my taste) are simple and straightforward.
And there's lots of examples! Those are a big plus.
T
Cedric:
Wow, it sure helps, I really like how fast you are generating ideas, how you put things into perspective and how you don't try to force me adopt anything. Thanks for having made this statement since I have difficulties in refusing other's proposals, especially when they put some much effort in formalizing them. I'll be careful ! :)
Infinite VS finite RPG: I guess this is definitely an 'infinite' one. I guess that the core arc-stories could themselves be run in three standalone campaigns. If you add to this the exploration of each race's secrets, you have a handful more, not to mention the fact that some sessions can be organized in this universe just for its color, not necessarily seeking to find out any cosmic revelation !
Team-work VS (sometimes) antagonistic player characters: Ideally, I'd say both. From a background perspective, we are in a survival setup - it's already difficult to survive to the weather conditions alone, so better work together - but tension between characters always makes up things more spicy. I enjoyed for example playing Guilds, where you are tied to two possibly contradicting causes: your guild, and your tribe. Most of the time you work for the guild, but not always.
In Föld, since all players will be bound to a demon, I guess we can support teamwork play (characters versus their demons, characters observed by friend demons) and antagonistic goals (strong different beliefs, family secrets).
This full paragraph to basically tell 'I don't know' !
I recently heard about a game that is promoting this kind of selfish attitude of player characters (Wasteland) but I did not read the rulebook. Really recent work by the way which shares some common ideas with Föld (this kind of world is maybe trendy these days?)
On XP: I did not think really much about XP so far. I considered buying / upgrading contacts, altering inhibition stats, buying off disorders and also buying off addictions to drugs - topic which we did not discuss so far. Keeping with the harsh setup, drugs shall be the (almost only) way to accelerate healing and could be used for un-inhibiting (is that an english word?) oneself. But drug consumption comes with addiction and will require higher doses for performing the same effects as you get used to it.
I also thought about giving the PC a fixed amount of XP before the session starts. The players will have the possibility to use these for e.g. forcing a roll success. At the end of the session, only the remaining XP will be used for modifying the character. Ideally these virtual XP could come back with good roleplay, how this should exactly work, I did not really think yet about.
About upgrading Gifts / Knowledge and Max HP: I would say no upgrade of these, but I'm open to suggestions. As I told you, I thought about: 1 job, 4 HP, that's it. If XP are spent in increasing stats, then what will happen when the character dies? Either we transmit them to the new character, which will then turn character transition into a long process. Or the XP is gone, which is frustrating for the player. When I spoke about killing-off characters, I thought about avoiding the typical GM attitude with players doing stupid things like going straight into a blizzard. I would like also to explore difficult things such as illness and condemn some characters just because 'life is not fair'. I want the players to feel part of a decaying humanity and not feel different simply because they get the spotlight. If it comes at XP expense, players will go mad at the GM. If it moves the story forward as they begin wondering why the new character remembers what happened the previous day with the other guys, then we're talking.
Magic system: I was sure I'd have to detail this. Ok. Now we begin to address the core concept on which Föld is built. I'll try to keep it concise.
- Human beings (and animals and plants and insects) are made of two elements. One is the 'body' and one is the 'mind'. Both are mixed and made solid. I call this a Cristal, in essence the Cristal is here the creature itself. But Cristals are melting over time (entropy), freeing-up a flow of 'body' and a flow of 'mind' (I defined the flow as 'fluxes', the body flux as 'Szerv', the mind flux as 'Élõ', the Cristal combining Szerv and Élõ as 'Eleven' - congratulations, you now know half of the 'cosmic
terminology' :))
The Cristal are pulsing, they all have their natural pulse. When Dissolving, they emit the two fluxes. These behave like waves, the waveform directly based upon the pulse of the emitting Cristal.
Humans control the fluxes by modifying the wave length, resulting in four basic magic families. The 'Forced Szerv' family works by making the Szerv wave pulse at a certain speed, either very quick or very slow. By beaming a target with a high-speed flux, the target's Cristal will resonate and accelerate its pulse accordingly. In a nutshell, this makes the Cristal heat-up, possibly to the point of ignition. So much for pyrokinesis. By sending a very slow beam, one can effectively freeze the target. Ultra-high speed can lead to Cristal shatter - I let you imagine what this means.
The 'Induced Szerv' family works by adapting one's Szerv speed to the natural speed of the target Cristal. Once perfectly aligned, this creates a sort of invisible link between the magic user and the target. By acting on this link, the magic user can then lift the target in the air, push it in any direction, even control it as if it was a puppet (experts only of course). It can even be used on oneself for levitating. So much for telekinesis.
The 'Induced Élõ' family also creates a link, but via the 'mind' flux. Once established, one can read into the mind of the target. The 'Forced Élõ' family allows altering the target mind via carefully crafted beaming. This can lead to simple brain damage, but allows for changing memories, implanting orders (a la Words of Power from Dungeons and Dragons) or even increase the target's intelligence by accelerating its thinking process.
That's it for the basis. Now when you consider that you can also combine the fluxes together or 'transfer' them instead of making them resonate, it opens-up lots of possibilites and few chances to resist. Vaporizing someone on sight or completely erasing his memories sure is something scary...
One remark here: with one exception (the demon of death), all known magic users were ever able to master only one of these magic families. They consider that their power is simply 'their magic', just as some people have blue eyes or green ones, and never thought further. They even self-restrict them further into sub-categories. For example, the "Élus de Io" specialize in magic freezing but consider pyrokinesis as demonic magic...
Now when it comes to cooldown and resources spent, this is simply fatigue. No wizard components, no need for particular conditions (theoretically - the Élus inflict lots of restictions onto themselves). In terms of game rules, they cast with their HP. The exact cost remains to be defined - I have cost tables depending on the type of spell but that's quite heavy at the moment. An old idea I had (which does not fit well with the current progress on the inhibition stuff) was the following:
- for casting a spell, you define the difficulty level based on the spell type (thanks to the tables)
- you roll two dices simultaneously: a D6, called the resolution dice, and a D10, called the control dice.
- the control roll succeeds if you roll less than X, where X is your total number of mental disorders. If the control roll is a success, then the spell will go off, whatever happens.
- the resolution dice succeeds if you roll more than the difficulty level of the spell. If you succeed, good, spell is resolved. You sustain 1 HP of fatigue.
- If the resolution dice fails while the control dice succeeded, then you will lose 1 HP *per missing point* on the resolution roll. If you fall to 0 HP and that you are still under the required score, you fell unconscious and only then is the spell cancelled.
This was nice in the sense that at full mental health you will always fail the Control roll. What was not nice is the fact that this does not work well with a 4 HP limit and that it adds quite some calculation. I'm sure this can be made simpler.
About demon creation: they are based on our unconscious thoughts. Initially these could be anything, but the more I think about it, the more I would like to restrict these to phobias only. And yes, the population of believers will basically dictate the autonomy level of the demon and even define its inner nature. This process takes a very long time and require massive belief - prayers are not necessary. And as belief change, so will the demon. The 'god of wind' adored by Élus is noone else than the greek Eole god.
About fluid awareness: the magic fluid is never recognized as such. It is usually called 'miracles' when it's Élus' magic, 'demonic power' when it's not an Élu. Some call it 'Iridia' ('the power that iridiates within the self') but these are not many. The official name (read: for gamemasters) for is is 'flux', 'szerv flux' or 'élõ flux'. Oh and (some) demons call it 'High Mágia' (for their magic) and 'Low Mágia' (for humans') but it's just them being cocky :) Demon magic is almost the same as humans, but with certain differences. I'll keep these for later.
The demons are not better than the humans. And for simplifying, let's say that they can only use the Élõ magic on them. They use induced Élõ for reading their minds and seeing what they see, and that's pretty much it. Some demons know how to alter the mind, but since they don't master both mind-reading and mind-writing, they are left blind and can't actually do much. So the demons will have to plant subtle suggestions indeed. I thought about allowing communication through dreams once the PC is unstable enough. But I'm not entirely sure since this is bending the rule a bit. The other solution is just to have the demons allow human experience to stack by carrying it over to other humans, possibly selectively, until they ask themselves questions, eventually meet with a demon, and let the demon guess which other demon is using / guiding the player characters. If you (or anybody) have better ideas I'm all ears.
About magic and tech fusion: yeah, that's deliberate. I read so much about 'magic versus technology', I just thought: why not have both? (in the same way that I wanted to break the 'fighter versus wizard' paradigm).
Links between races and greek gods: well these links were not intentional. Itinérants are not meant to be close to any messenger god, and Létara... well, that's complex. Let's just say that the purity thing is involved somewhere. Big secret again, a female demon is trying to become human and is experimenting with the Létara through eugenism and magic. For added fun, this demon is the daughter of the demon of Céphyra. Experimenting is in the blood, it seems.
Immersion...: The races grew apart for 400 years. Then the Itinérants starting linking them. We are in year 700 something so mixes happened ! Aréna is very cosmopolitan, for example. There are no major tensions between the races. Racism exists but not to the point of starting a war. Cities are quite far away from each other, say a few weeks to a few months with an Itinérant vessel (depends on the moon phases and seasons). Each race has its own written alphabet, but they kind of speak the same language. A kind of english actually - since it's well known, in year 3333 English will be the universal language and french will be but a dialect ;)
Aréna is mixed, Frontalier villages are also appreciated by all races, Itinérant vessels also host people from all races. Boréalis, la Cité-Rêve (the Élus' headquarters) and Létar are not welcoming strangers, but people don't really care.
Players should be allowed to choose any race, there is no reason they should not work together.
Inhibitions...: you wrote "It's just difficult (philosophically) for me to agree with the "something that betters the person (freeing themself from inhibitions) naturally causes them to suffer a detrimental Condition" perspective." It just sounds unnatural for me as well. My definition would rather be "I did not want to do this, I forced myself to do it and now I regret so much more". This 'thing I forced myself to do' could have been for the greater good, but it was too much for the character.
Maybe the disorder should appear only if the tempted virtuous action failed (a backfire) but this would require to keep track of such failures and will inevitably be subjective. Or is it not? It took too much time to write my answer, I see you had the time to propose the "Stefoid's Ingenero" approach as an alternative. Guess I'll have to read it before my next post - but this 'bodily' versus 'soul-y' already seems to align well with the magic system? Well I'll have to read through it first.
You also wrote that you can be non-inhibited and not crazy. You are correct. (I actually hope I'm one of those. Now completely non-inhibited but not completely not crazy either I guess ;)) This would apply only to Player Characters, to demonists (which are basically (non) Player Characters which turned bad) and to characters using magic without saying it (miracle workers for Frontaliers, transe dancers for Létara, levitators for Itinérants...)
And about the Élus and hypnotism: they are not really crazy indeed. Still the crazy ones among them are also the most powerful magic users. The hypnotism serves as a mean to convince them that they were chosen by a god. They are conditionned into thinking that their mentor god can talk to them, watch over them and use their (own) magic when the Élu asks him/her to help.
At the end, they think that their god mentor hears their prayers and acts for them. The 'good' part is that it is easier to convince the Élu about this than to convince the Élu that he himself has the power. The 'bad' part is that this confines the Élu into the very specific sub-school of magic belonging to this god, and the magic will trigger only if all the requirements are met (the Élu is convinced that he needs to recitate a prayer in the language of gods, while performing certain movements etc. These act as catalysts and technically lower the difficulty level for the spell). In the end they are kind of broken magic users.
Ok, now I've reached the part where you propose the CCC system (Condition Consequences Chores). Yet another idea that I find really interesting; still I'm not sure whether I can write an answer back right away, I need to think about it some more. And now I also have the Ingenero system to ponder.
So I will stop here, maybe the extra details I provided in this post will be helpful for you to reassess which direction the inhibition system concept should go towards?
Comments on the other parts are of course also welcome, even if slightly off-topic for this thread ;) - especially on the loophole about demon influence on the Player Characters...
Thanks again for your help
Cédric
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