My experiences with different systems
stefoid:
Ooo, oooh, social challenges is very close to home for me at the minute. I have just completed a redraft for the game in my sig, and you guys are touching on some issues I am trying to address.
Ron, if this belongs in its own thread, then shift it please, but for the moment, Ill put the link here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B5W32IfgIIkrZDUwMzFhZWItYzA2Yi00NDg5LWFmOWEtOTdhYWY0OWZiYjM5&hl=en_US
What do you think?
Ron Edwards:
Hi,
Let's not hijack Drach's thread too badly. I suggest sticking to the exact points he raised, and that I tried to develop, and stating where you think they apply to your game in progress. The point is to provide a basis for comparison, which won't work too well unless you show the way.
If you want to focus specifically on your game, then I recommend starting an additional Game Development thread for it, using the same link.
Best, Ron
Roger:
Quote from: Drachasor on September 15, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
Lastly, I have to say I've disliked games that can easily produce crippled characters whether this is generally useless characters or characters that are useless in a common situation (like a social setting). It just isn't very much fun if a player has to essentially sit out and not do much because of a decision they made during character creation. The latter seems to be a pretty darn common problem.
I can't quite figure out what you mean here. You start by talking off about the games producing crippled characters, and end up talking about player decisions.
Do you mean:
1. You don't like games which have the potential to mechanically-produce, without user intervention, substandard characters? Examples may include some versions of Traveller, some early versions of D&D, and early versions of Gamma World, among others.
2. You don't like games which give the user the potential to create substandard characters? Examples may include most versions of GURPS, and broadly-speaking, many point-buy systems in general.
3. Both of the above?
4. Something else entirely?
I'm also not sure quite what you mean with "a player essentially has to sit out and not do much" -- I would find an example helpful here, I think.
Cheers,
Roger
contracycle:
There are quite a few cases where players may have to "sit out" - every character other than the hacker in a cyberpunk game, when the hacker is doing a penetration, for example. Or, in WEG Star Wars, every character other than those with piloting skills (or similar) if they get into a space battle.
Not entirely sure this is solvable by system as such though.
stefoid:
Social challenges:
Ok, so it seems to me that the relatively few games I have experience with offer social skills that amount only to influence attempts - charm, seduce, fast talk, intimidate, orrate, etc... Variations on a theme, in that the character has an aim, and rolling one of these skills means they can achieve it or not.
"the guard wont let you through the door"
"ok, I fast talk him with some bullshit about being a messenger" rolls dice Success!
"Ok, he lets you through"
Which is fine as far as it goes, but it suffers from the complaints that Drach is making - you have a variety of hammers, each a little different but with basically the same purpose - to bludgeon someone socially into compliance. There is no framework there to accomodate or guide the players in having their characters do anything that isnt an influence attempt. thats not to say that its impossible to use that array of skills to accomplish other more subtle social aims, but the game doesnt help you -- its all up to the GM and the players to be on the same page with both what is achievable and how it can be achieved using the mechanics at hand. Like Drach says, often you just make it up, or just as often ignore the possibility that social challenges that arent bludgeoning influence attempts even exist.
Id like to hear if other people see this as an issue and what can be done about it. I have my own ideas which I started another thread about in the development section as suggested [Ingenero]
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