[Pitfighter] SBP: is there anything better to roll for than success?
David Berg:
Dan,
I find the label helpful, but if you'd rather think of it as "Story Before that's also a game with something meaningful for the players to do", that's pretty damn close! I should talk about Gumshoe in a bit. I've thought about Trail of Cthulhu a lot, played twice, and read the book multiple times, and I can't tell whether my problems with it are more system or presentation. In the end, I'd put it in the "compatible with SBP, but not much help" category.
Gareth,
That breakdown of player progress does seem to me like it might be useful.
That such progress would be made by players making guesses makes me nervous. But maybe that's not because it's a bad idea, it's just because I've never seen it done well. As long as a wrong guess isn't a meaningless waste of time, and as long as the players have enough material to make FUN guesses, then it could work!
Frank,
A few separate points:
1) GM secrets and player ignorance
I hear you that GM secret-keeping CAN definitely produce disoriented players. But that's a problem I'd like to solve!
I think one of the big GM appeals of SBP is Reveals, and one of the big appeals of a Reveal is that you get to answer some Big Question that the players have been lugging around with them and investing in. In other words, a Secret.
It seems to me that it shouldn't be too hard to give the players both secrets to be mystified by AND enough orientation to, y'know, do stuff.
Like, I dunno, your character is a spy but also a dad, and everything he does as a spy impacts how we see his past, present, and future fatherhood. So when the spy trail grows cold, you can still use your larger character vision to move forward (e.g. "here, a good dad would..."). I'm not thrilled with that example, but there are probably better ones out there already in the gaming world...
2) Reward Systems -- later?
I definitely want to talk about this, but I was planning a separate thread. Here I want to just talk about resolution. Maybe I'm doing this in the wrong order. I'll try to get an SBP Rewards thread started soon.
3) Fruitful Void
Your point there sounds important, but I don't quite understand it. What exactly is the fun thing that you see being taken away from the group by the approaches I've proposed? My thought was that the skillful dance of play was just being moved, not eliminated. So it'd be, I dunno, more about skillfully describing outcomes within resolved color parameters, and less about skillfully describing color within resolved outcome parameters, or something.
Ps,
-David
stefoid:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 09, 2011, 05:47:29 AM
Stephen,
I am concerned that you have not yet processed Story Before as a concept. Here and as I now realize, in your previous thread, your description is way, way too broad - it basically says, "When the GM puts in important stuff happening." That is not what I mean by those terms.
Story Before means the players have no power whatsoever over the story. They get to be in the story, and that is all. So this is a double-check - are you sure you're really getting this?
It's an important issue. I'm just now working up some pretty massive posts about it. I'm worried that you're lunging forward without internalizing the single most important point.
Story Before does not merely mean "prep cool things to happen." It means prepping cool things to result, during play, from what happens.
Best, Ron
I guess I dont get it then. I figure Story before is prepping what happens beforehand - scene 1: players interrupt bank robbery in progress, and bank robbers get away.
I figure the purpose of this thread was the question - given that nothing the players do is going to effect that outcome, what is there to roll dice about?
My answer to that question is "HOW the PCs perform their various activities". Maybe they are able to prevent innocent bystanders from being shot. Maybe they are able to determine clues about the robbers that will come in handy latter. etc...
Ron Edwards:
Gah! David, not Stephen. I did it again! Will do better.
My post was directed toward David. Your post was peachy (American English, means "fine") and you clearly understand fine.
David, I want to stress that I am seeking confirmation only out of nervousness and the desire for the meaning of the term not to slide off the rails.
Best, Ron
Roger:
Hi David,
Are you familiar with those Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books? It sort of looks like you're describing a GM-moderated CYOA experience. Does that seem sort of accurate?
Cheers,
Roger
David Berg:
Hi Ron,
I spelled out how I'm using "Story Before" here. That hasn't changed.
If you're worried that I'm talking about any ol' prep, like, "And then you see this thing in the distance that I planned!", I'm not.
If you're worried that I'm talking about play where the GM doesn't plan every single encounter and its outcome, I am indeed including that.
The place where I've drawn the line is at the group agreement that the GM will make big important things happen that directly concern the players' and characters' primary matters of interest. "The bad guys you wanted to catch do get away, you do find clues about their plan, your searching and fighting does lead you to them before they can destroy the city."
How often the GM does this is less of a concern for me right now. If I'm GMing my story but I leave the final scene's outcome up to the dice or the players... well, I still want support for all the play that led up to that final scene.
I wouldn't want to be misusing an already-defined term, so if you've got a better one for me to sub in for "Story Before", just let me know!
Thanks,
-David
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