How to enjoy Story Before without Participationism
Josh Porter:
Quote from: stefoid on December 17, 2011, 05:02:12 PM
Is this guy THE GM? Why didnt you run Dungeon World? Why dont you suggest running something 'in tandem' i.e. switch games every fortnight? and you GM a game you like in the style you want. The groups reaction to the contrast should be enlightening one way or the other.
This is an excellent question. The answer is "kind of." Our group kind of rotates between three GMs: me, the guy we're talking about on this thread, and another dude. Guy number three is currently running a Deadlands game right now and playing in the Dresden Files game at the same time. And guy two, who's running Dresden, comes up with games he wants to run fairly regularly, and kind of offers them up to the rest of the group to see who wants to play. This game is a little different, as it's basically a spin-off.
I just finished running a nine-month-ish game of Dresden that was the precursor to this one. I had my own struggles with GMing for the complete opposite reasons; the group was expecting the "follow the plot" style game and that's not what I was going for at all. What ended up happening was a frustration on my part because the players were expecting me to railroad and I wouldn't do it. Here's the thread I started about it. At the time I wrote the initial post of that thread I was very burnt out and I sort of used it to work out my frustration. It was actually a favorite game for almost everyone playing and not as bad as I made it sound in my burnt-out headspace. I'm better now. I've also been GMing the playtests of Caterpillar, the game I'm writing at the moment and having a blast. So I am kind of running another game at the same time; it's almost all the same people.
The reason I didn't run Dungeon World is partly selfish and partly coincidental. We were just hanging around one night and decided to play it because two of us owned the PDF copy. We went over to Kinko's, printed some character sheets, and started playing within about an hour. It was kind of a "Well, I'll GM this game if that's cool with you guys" scenario. Also I'd been really jonesing to play Apocalypse World as a player specifically for several months, so this seemed like the next best thing.
I definitely think there's hope for this game. And hope for indie-izing my GM friend. It will probably need to be a subtle touch, but I think I can bring it up with him and get a positive result. I'll put up the results of our discussion here once it takes place.
David Berg:
I have a little experience with addressing railroady GMs.
When a GM has taken on responsibility for giving the players something fun to do, the last thing they want to be told is that they need to make it more fun.
I discovered this, and tried simply observing that my experience could have been better, without pointing the finger or making any demands. No luck. My GM just started spouting what he thought were universal truths about RPG goals, virtues, procedures, and limitations. "Okay, Dave, it isn't perfect for you. There are good reasons for that. And anyway, so what? We're all having fun, right?"
Asking the GM for advice, "How do I get the most out of this? What do you wish I was doing?" gave me some useful info on how the GM viewed the game. That's good to know before proposing changes.
If I had to do it now, I'd talk to the GM purely about what they get out of the game. That's what I'd advise. Find out what their favorite parts are. Then see if you can think up changes to your play system that will get them more of what they like. That's the change you pitch them.
Once you establish that changing your process can be more fun for them, then you can work on introducing changes that'll be more fun for you. (Or I guess you could try to do both at once.)
Chris_Chinn:
Quote from: Josh Porter on December 17, 2011, 01:58:40 PM
I am trying to figure a way to communicate my frustrations about this game with the GM in a way that will not hurt his feelings. He is one of my good friends, as are the rest of the players, and that may be why we all put up with the game as it lies. We are a bunch of friends hanging out together before all else.
(snip)
Long story short, I'm looking for a way to broach the whole conversation of this game without putting him on the defensive.
So:
1. The GM has invested a high amount of his self esteem in being a good storyteller, and isn't open to criticism, advice, suggestions, or requests without potentially taking it as being an attack.
2. As friends, you can't openly talk about the game(s) and what you guys, as a group, find fun per #1.
3. He's gotten upset and stormed out when the group pursued and achieved the type of play they found fun.
I wish I had an answer for you, but it doesn't seem like the core problem is on finding a better way to communicate, here.
I can suggest some things I've written previously that might be related to what you're describing as your situation.
http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/a-way-out/
http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2007/08/01/building-your-own-house-of-cards/
http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2007/08/01/building-your-own-house-of-cards-pt-2/
http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2007/08/01/building-your-own-house-of-cards-pt-3/
Good luck.
Chris
Josh Porter:
Here's the conversation the GM and I have had through a few emails. Things look very promising.
ME
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I also have some discussion for you. This is just for you and me, and not a Reply All type message. I have been feeling a little lost in this game. I'm not specifically sure why that is, but I think it has something to do with the structure of the adventures so far.
It definitely seems like you have a solid plan for this DFRPG campaign. But it also seems like you are a little frustrated with us as players for not picking up on what your plan is. I know for me, I've been kind of following the plot along, not interacting too much. I think this is because I get the feeling that you want the story to proceed a certain way and I don't want to mess that up. I think I'm a little wary of creating another L5R game where us PCs have fun, but you as the GM end up frustrated.
I don't know if this is the same vibe you're getting, but I figured it was good to talk about. How do you feel the game is going? Am I making any sense, or is this kind of coming out of left field?
HIM
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I've certainly had a few frustrating sessions. I'm working pretty hard on _not_ creating another L5R, honestly, as I've tried really hard to avoid pushing y'all down any particular path or forcing any particular plot thread onto center stage. My advice isn't to sit back and let me feed you plot, because that isn't my intent - my intent has been to provide multiple hooks into things going on for PC's to latch on to. I'm gradually shifting that approach because it's been leading to folk being unsure about what ought to be done or what my expectations are.
My prep has been to work up 2-3 different situations for the PC's to become involved in. Those that don't get used are saved to be 'recycled' for later use. I do have an overarching plot in mind but it's really something to be uncovered rather than delivered.
Part of the problem (which [the other guy who GMs] helped me drill down to) is that we never did city creation properly, so when I toss out NPC's (like poor Diana Collard) players don't have any idea of whether they're important or who they are in the setting. Hence, I'm hoping to collect some folk that y'all will have a meta-knowledge of beforehand, and whose appearance will be a signal of "hey, I'm a guest star in an episode about this town/problem/particular PC and worth paying attention to." I've also been a little more subtle (and TV inspired) in the hooks I've presented.
Hence, Chuluun. [the yeti who my character met with] My intent with introducing the arch-conservative Mongolian was to light a bit of a fire under your ass. I didn't do a very good job of presenting him (and probably should have intro'd Diana somewhat earlier, so I didn't need to pause and explain). My advice to you for ways to increase your fun and reduce my frustration is to grab on to story hooks with both hands and engage. I've been having a lot of trouble with going "so what are you guys doing" and getting silence from the table. It's hard for me to offer compels or bring the mechanics into play when all I can do is narrate and straight up ask "so do you want to x?" Be aware that while I've read your story and your aspects, I still don't know everything you do about, frex, Yeti culture (you made them up, after all!) so when I toss out situations like a friendly 'quatch being missing, it might be more helpful to mention, say "well, I wouldn't normally go looking but maybe you can offer some mitigating circumstances or more detail?" Basically, meet me halfway if you think I'm dangling a hook.
Anyhow. Me and [the other guy who GMs] talked some GMly habits post last session and over email later. I'm settling in to a very different style of gaming with DFRPG and I'm juggling a lot in my head - multiple plot threads, aspects I might compel, and making sure everyone is included - especially Ali, as she's still getting her feet, I think. Most of my anger centering around table-talk or jokes has been related to myself or someone else being talked over during what would otherwise be IC moments.
Anyhow. TL;DR, engage and grab on to stuff that interests you. Ask me questions OOCly (and make it clear they're OOC) and try to meet me halfway, because I dislike spoon-fed plots.
ME
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Coolio. That helps me much. Also what does " TL;DR" mean? I will give a shot to grabbing on with both hands for sure. I think one of the reasons I've not been doing that so far is because while I see your plot hooks' importance to the plot as a whole, I'm not always connecting their importance to Lloyd. I'm trying to filter them through his character, and sometimes that dilutes the importance of such things. I also think some good old-fashioned NPCs will help a lot. None of us really have people we care about outside the group at the moment, and I think that's inherently important.
I think the one thing that I'm struggling with is keeping Lloyd a "round character", as opposed to a character who has no real life outside of the adventure. I wanted to hold off a bit on the whole "missing yeti" story and see how it played out privately first before telling the whole group. I like the idea of open secrets on the table, where my character knows something that no other characters know, but we all know it as players. I don't know if that is something that would have ruined the plot or not, but I felt like we had a couple other places to go, and I wanted to hold on to that one a bit. It didn't end up happening, but that's because I got the feeling that I was acting out. Not just from you specifically, it was just kind of the general vibe. If there is anything else I can work on to make this game run a little more smoothly, let me know, sir. I appreciate this conversation.
I think this all looks good for the future of the game. I'll make a hippie-gamer out of him yet!
Dan Maruschak:
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I've been having a lot of trouble with going "so what are you guys doing" and getting silence from the table.
If your GM is serious about running a less team-confronts-my-plot style game, I have a purely practical observation related to this point. Psychologists have observed that people in a group are less likely to respond to an ambiguous situation than an individual on their own would be. Basically, what happens is that people see the other people around them not doing something, so they subconsciously assume that "doing nothing" is the right thing to do. When a GM asks a group "what do you guys do?", there's a psychological barrier for each individual player to step forward and propose an action for the whole group. The practical suggestion for GMs is to not ask "the group" to respond, but to ask an individual player what their character's response is. Since each player knows that they have authority over their own character, they're less likely to hesitate and "let someone else go first". (This could obviously result in characters splitting up and going in different directions or even working at cross purposes, so it won't work if the group isn't on board with that type of game.)
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