Setting expectations, resolving conflicts, and other Rx's for dysfunctional play
Chris_Chinn:
Hi J,
Quote
But then, that poses a major question for me: If letting the plans work only serves to encourage further planning (through reward), and disrupting those plans only serves to pressure him to plan more/better, and talking to him head-on gets dismissed .... what the heck can be done to break him out of his Skinner box?
There's two issues here.
First is, what is the level of player power in the game you're trying to run vs. what Fred wants. For example, look at the Same Page Tool I wrote: http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/ and what the GM's Role is and the Player's Role is.
The question is, is everyone at the table aware of how this game you're running is supposed to go and on the same page?
Second, there's trust. If talking to Fred gets dismissed, you have a problem. Any situation where you cannot talk honestly and engage honestly on all sides about how the game works, there's a fundamental lack of trust that means the game cannot work.
This means Fred has to actually have enough trust in what you are saying, that you are not just paying lip service to whatever level of power or influence the player is supposed to have. That said, it's not necessarily Fred's fault if he can't exercise trust in this situation simply because a good chunk of rpg culture advice is, "Lie to your players", which is basically how we get this situation.
It also means that you have to live up to how you say the game is supposed to go.
The reason I put together that tool was because a lot of groups have formed either assuming all roleplaying works the same way and wondering what's going wrong when their assumptions don't match, or, not being able to honestly articulate how their game play is actually supposed to work.
Part of this process means that this discussion might end with Fred going, "I don't want to play that way." and everyone accepting that this is not the game for him without any personal judgment on either side. (Anymore than, "Wanna go see this music show?" "Naw, I'm not into that band, maybe another show another time.")
There is no way to "make" anyone like anything, and there's no need to force him to change. You guys need to connect on what you're really expecting from play and decide if there can be a meeting point or not. And if not, you go separate ways and play different games.
Chris
stefoid:
Play a game that place a solid structure around how the players and the GM interact, what the players and GM can do etc...
I think something like Apocalypse World would be good for this. Baiscally Fred can make all the plans he wants, but when it comes down to rolling the dice, if he rolls low there will be consequences - it has a list right there on the page. You can argue with me but you cant argue with the rules...
Also wear a tall pointy hat. for status.
Caldis:
I hate to say it but it looks like your situation is beyond the point of saving. Your friend has an idea on how to play and as much as you can try and talk to him and try to get your expectations on the same page it doesnt seem like he's willing to listen for longer than a session or to respond positively beyond sulking. I'd say it's a given that there's a CA difference going on and that there's a very good chance that your friend has a disfunctional playstyle i.e. one that doesnt work well with others that he's not bullying (cant say for certain without hearing his side of the story).
I think your options are either to not play at all with Fred anymore or simply not to run games with him. Play in games he's running if they are decent or join in the storyteller games run by Jack. Look elsewhere if you need more in terms of a gaming fix but I cant imagine you ever managing to get Fred to play the way you like and I dont think you are willing to play in a fashion that supports his playstyle.
Double_J:
Thanks guys. I think I've gotten most of what I've needed. Disappointingly, my core suspicions have been confirmed.
Hey Callan,
Your question really has me intrigued. It's been a couple of days, so I'll re-prompt :
Quote from: Double_J on January 03, 2012, 12:11:30 PM
Quote from: Callan S. on January 01, 2012, 10:35:38 PM
There's alot there. I thought I'd just ask if you have trouble developing material for play when essentially the player doesn't contribute to the material, they just chew up what you've made into component atoms and move on?
In terms of options, it seems pivotal whether A: You need something back from the players in terms of contribution, in order to generate more material or B: Your quite capable of generating material till the cows come home?
If it's B, then there's some potential.
Hmm. Well, I can pump out material all day long; but without meaningful engagement by the players, then there's no point -- I might as well just go write a novel.
In order for me to generate material that is interesting for me to watch, then yes, I do need meaningful player feedback. In order for me to have fun, I need for the players to show some initiative -- it's kinda the point. Otherwise if just feels like I'm leading them by the nose.
Please, continue.
I'm assuming that there was a follow-up response contingent to my answer?
@stefoid:
Could that not be achieved using virtually any system, by using some sort of (properly articulated) "primer", perhaps based off of something like Chris's "same page tool"?
Yes, that may inadvertently conflict with some of the assumptions made by your system-of-choice; but, for me, the main utility of a published game is to provide a codified method of conflict/task resolution (try not to read too much in to that).
Interesting that you should mention Apocalypse World. This is one of the games that popped up recently when I was doing some market research for the game I have in development right now -- an apocalypse-based setting (which should start being unveiled in the next few months). While I've only skimmed the AW material, I'm not sure how I feel about it -- the character sheet didn't give me a lot to be excited about .... perhaps I'll give it a second look.
As far as "traditional fantasy" goes ... I've just downloaded Mazes & Minotaurs, and will be giving it a look this weekend. I've looked at some other games, and have been rather unimpressed so far. I'm starting to finally get the idea that "D&D" may just have way too much baggage attached to it to be able to do anything meaningful in regards to "same-page" and calibrating expectations.
Double_J:
oh, I almost forgot ...
@Chris:
thanks for the link -- I also hit a few of the other posts .... that site is now bookmarked. Big help going forward.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page