Setting expectations, resolving conflicts, and other Rx's for dysfunctional play
stefoid:
Quote from: Double_J on January 05, 2012, 03:12:39 PM
@stefoid:
Could that not be achieved using virtually any system
Hows that working for you :)
Double_J:
Quote from: stefoid on January 05, 2012, 05:34:56 PM
Quote from: Double_J on January 05, 2012, 03:12:39 PM
@stefoid:
Could that not be achieved using virtually any system
Hows that working for you :)
touche. ;-p
To be fair, he's just one guy .... the answer is - or at least should be - refinement of presentation. (or am I just being stubborn?)
stefoid:
AW is very structured in that it tells you explicitly when you roll dice , and provides a framework for the results. Might give you less to argue about.
Chris_Chinn:
Hi,
Quote
Could that not be achieved using virtually any system, by using some sort of (properly articulated) "primer", perhaps based off of something like Chris's "same page tool"?
(snip to different response, same topic)
...the answer is - or at least should be - refinement of presentation. (or am I just being stubborn?)
You'll notice in that last reply, I've got the big caveat that you can give the big presentation, but, at the end of the day, it may just be he doesn't want to play that way. Like I said, the problem has several steps you need to work through:
1. Being clear with him
2. Whether he believes you or not
3. Whether he's capable of honestly articulating what he wants back TO you (recognition, articulation, trust, etc.)
4. Whether those two things are compatible
In my experience, the player who spends a lot of energy and time avoiding the rules, is probably so low on trust that the situation is pretty unlikely to end with, "Wow! You mean we're actually playing like THIS instead of THAT? Oh, let me change how I'm doing things."
Most of the time, I've seen what happens is it becomes a "discussion"(argument) about what constitutes good roleplaying and how gaming should work, which is, in fact, actually the person repeating truisms without actually connecting them to play ("Fun is all that matters!" "I just want a good story!" "I'm playing my character!" "This would be realistic!", etc.)
The Same Page Tool is designed to make the idea clear, but if you get "What if?" "But", etc. type deflections the answer is, "Man, I'm sorry I didn't have this clear when we started playing. It sounds like you want to play a different game. How about I give you a call when we start playing a game that fits those criteria?"
Of course, this gives you the other problem - people assume not-playing together is a form of personal friendship rejection.
Chris
Callan S.:
Hi Jason,
Sorry, I went on holidays for a week shortly after posting and forgot to note that.
Quote
Hmm. Well, I can pump out material all day long; but without meaningful engagement by the players, then there's no point -- I might as well just go write a novel.
In order for me to generate material that is interesting for me to watch, then yes, I do need meaningful player feedback. In order for me to have fun, I need for the players to show some initiative -- it's kinda the point. Otherwise if just feels like I'm leading them by the nose.
Please, continue
Well, it sounds like gamist, play to win (or atleast one type of gamist PTW) doesn't appear as meaningful player feedback to you. So I'm not sure you can enjoy gaming with him. To do so - well, remember 'the big screw' he referenced. Well you'd probably have to enjoy delivering screw overs. If you think of Gygax inventing rust monsters and treasure chest shaped mimics and cursed magic weapons (and monsters who pretended to be ceilings...or floors...or walls...), screw overs were the dealio. You enjoyed delivering screw overs or trying to evade them or you just weren't up for the game, either as GM or player. Certainly the computer game 'Nethack' feels like it has screwed me over with it's deaths (people invented the acronym YASD because of this game (Yet Another Stupid Death)), and it's beloved of many people.
Thing is, it gets a bit souless and he will most likely avoid developing any sort of characterisation because that just gives the GM another means of screwing the player over. It's not impossible to pump out souless material, but you might only be able to pump out dramatic material (which begs dramatic engagement or otherwise, as you say, you may as well write a novel) and you are actually unable to produce souless material.
I think I've had perhaps some similar issues in my early GM'ing career, onwards. Writing some dramatic material, only for it to be engaged purely in an 'overcome it all' way. My responce was to try and figure some formula of generating material that always grabs. But it never seemed to work - the formulaic stuff didn't grab them, but the dramatic stuff, while it grabbed them, they did nothing with it but try to overcome it all. It may be a special kind of dysfunctional play, where some players are attracted to dramatic material, but can't seem to engage it dramatically, yet they find formulaic material dull, regardless of obstacles to overcome. All they do is drain the GM.
So I dunno, what do you think?
Quote
BTW, please describe these warts of mine that you derived from my posts -- I'm interested (I rarely turn down an opportunity for self improvement; thus I welcome constructive criticism).
The thing is, if your playing under a traditional game structure with the golden rule and all that, how can using those rules in any particular way be wrong? It creates a certain relativist environment, where dropping a heap of gold on players feet is relatively equal to using GM fiat to capture, torture and try and berate players into certain use of their PC/the spoken fiction they speak.
Something to try might be house ruling away your capacity to do such a GM fiat (and the house rule also nulls the golden rule, so you can't use it to return that GM fiat ability mid game). By removing such an ability, it might make gameplay different when you can't draw upon that sort of GM fiat maul at any moment. Might feel more exciting because of having less control over the whole event (it becomes more like everyones in the same shopping trolley together, even the GM, zooming downhill in directions highly uncontrolled!)
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