[Steampunk Crescendo] Out on a limb
Eero Tuovinen:
Dave, David - you have a really good dialogue going here, don't let me derail. I'll just take a stab at the marketing question from a different side.
You see, my own experience in marketing and being marketed to, game-wise, is that there are vast gulfs of experience and terminology between people, and these gulfs ruin most attempts at communication. This is why generic spiels have never sold me on a game. Never. There simply doesn't appear to be a set of buzz-words you can string together to make me interested. One would think that a Forgista like me would jump on anything that reads "It's got conflict resolution", but in truth that's old hat to me. My experiences selling games to others have been similar in that I do develop spiels for various games over time, but whether they strike home on a person is totally hit or miss: I've sold Zombie Cinema for several years now, for example, and I've practically decided to just shut up and show how the game runs because neither technical nor thematic exposition seems to be a good predictor for whether a given person would be interested in the game. Some people are excited about the Romero zombie thing but hate the mechanics (expecting a more traditional experience, I imagine), while some are lukewarm on both the zombies and Forgista philosophy until they see the game and realize that it's shallow structured freeform, at which point they fall in love with it, and yet others come in excited about seeing my Forge game (people who know me from the 'net, I mean) and go away disappointed at how simple the game is. Talking is a waste of time, I have to show the game to a person to gauge whether they get it or not. There are words for the thing that sells the game to people or not (stuctured freeform with drama arc, conflict resolution and GM-full shared storytelling), but the customer doesn't know these words, so what's the use?
Looking at it as a customer, the spiels that would work for me would be about cultural context - or namedropping, to be more exact. Tell me that this game is by a published Forge author or other designer whose work I've accepted in the past, say, and I'll check it out as a matter of principle. Tell me that Ron Edwards consulted on the development. Tell me that you decided to make a game that nails my favourite TV show, and I might go for it - I don't like traditional design, so I've gotten disappointed often by this sort of argument.
However, what I'm getting at here is that after reading Dave's descriptions of what his game is like, I'd like to share my impression: what I heard here will totally sell me if the punk part is genuine. I would still check it out in a bit more detail even if it's just WW-style posing, but if there's real punk in there (meaning anger, frustration, desperation and clear opportunity for political stances in the fictional context, and consequences for the same), then it's an immediate sale.
What makes me react this way are the following three points which jumped at me while skimming your dialogue:You can take however many vampire powers you want, but each comes with increasing vampiric drawbacks. That's cool, I could go places with that as desperation drives vampirism and ultimately grid-locks the poor vampire into the box where the Hunter operates.Players choose between going for the Goal or the Antagonist. I don't know what this means in detail, but it sounds cool - I could make the game that does tricks with that. I expect that it'd be fun to GM the game if you have a thing with antagonists going, like they're predeveloped or whatever, and the mechanics protect their dramatic position a bit, and they get to crush the dreams of the PCs. Also, these two points together paint me a picture of modern, considered design, which is important to me because nothing kills my interest as quickly as indications that a game's been constructed within the traditional echo chamber.Is it real punk? Dave's talking like it is, but there's gnawing doubt - roleplayers don't understand punk, they give me pussy poseurs in street clothing, and their games are all about doing some commando hits for the Ancilla instead of politized desperation of the working class.
Looking at the message I got here, what we need to think about is whether the above is idiosyncratic to me, or whether I'm representing some market demography here. Also, whether the game can pay off on my expectations, as it doesn't make sense to sell me the game if it's going to disappoint me - better to work on the people who'll like the game and give it good buzz. Once you've figured out my demographic inclinations and where more people like me hang out, you can just go post that list of selling points for those people: tell them that your game has the things that sold me on it, and you'll hook them as well.
More generally, don't just move on my impression: run your spiel and your game by other people and do some focus group research; find out what makes people burn on your game. Outright ignore the ones who don't seem at all interested; they're not in your target audience. But the ones who read stuff about your game or read your whole game and get that excited reaction I got, those - find out what hooked them. Get them to make a list like I did above. Figure out whether you have multiple target demographics, perhaps there are different people liking your game for different reasons. Perhaps there is just one audience and I'm an exemplar of that. Either way, once you have your focus grouping done, you can develop intelligent marketing for that specific audience.
As a closing, I'd like to say that while I have a good handle on marketing theory, I never could bother to do active marketing for my own games to the degree they'd deserve. So while I have some sense for the target demographics of eg. Zombie Cinema, I mostly use this data in convention marketing and in designing my website. This is because I care more about designing new games than pushing an old one; this is a common flaw in indie publishers. If you don't share this flaw, there's nothing stopping you from doing targeted net community marketing or even banner advertising and such paid spamming, once you figure out who your audience is and what needs to be said to hook them.
David Berg:
Eero, suppose that Steampunk Crescendo doesn't specifically support punk (in the sense you describe -- desperate working class action with political significance), but provides some tools that you could put to good use if you bring your own punk agenda to the game and push it on your group.
If that's the case, what would you like to be told about the game? What would get you most excited about it without being misleading?
I ask because my impression is that, while you can certainly pick a punk portion of the setting and a punk Goal and Drawback for your character, the other characters and Antagonist might be very much not punk... that is, unless you can orchestrate a group agreement of "let's do punk" during the setting-customizing phase. (Dave, please correct me if that's inaccurate!)
dindenver:
OK,
I'll reply to Dave and Eero in a bit. When I thought this thread was ended, I started thinking about how to describe this game and then I remembered the original design goal.
I wanted to make a game where Temptation was a tangible part of play. That is why Vampire powers are so easy to get. That is what there is a moral code built into the game system. I wanted to define that temptation and shine a spot light on it. "Don't do these things, but if you do, you will become a vampire with cool powers. Oh and you will need human blood to survive..."
I am going to craft a modified version of our pitch David and post it here. Let me know what you think when you see it.
dindenver:
Eero,
To name drop, my main influences were Cyberpunk2020, Vincent's Otherkind and Joe McDonald's Point of Collapse.
As to punk. I am not sure I can claim the punk crown. But I can say, I shot for a more sincere punk ethos. Meaning I gave the players tools to start a revolution, but gave the Establishment the same powers. It is pretty easy to setup a punk 'verse with this era. There was a lot of popularism happening and a lot of exploitation happening. That combined with the ability for bad people to coordinate or much longer distances effectively sets the stage for the perfect, you can change the world, but don't bother because the world is happy as it is type setting. Here is an excerpt from the final book:
How do I get that "punk" feel, if the characters have awesome powers, magic and superscience?
Making the game grittier by making the game more lethal to the characters or limiting the characters' ability to accomplish anything, does not make the game more "punk." The "punk" feeling comes from hopelessness. You can achieve this vibe by portraying normal people as accepting the current status quo as well. When everyone around the characters defines their own lives through the limits put on them by their oppressors, it sets a tone that you can't get through numbers or failed conflicts. When the characters can work hard, accomplish their goals, and the world is still a depressing mess. This will have a subtle affect on the themes and game play at the table.
This is from the GM section and is intended as advice on how to deal with the characters' awesomeness.
I dunno if this gets the Eero seal of approval or not ;-) , but I admire your work and hope it at least gets you to check it out.
dindenver:
David,
Thanks for chiming in, this is really helping me hone my message. I have been so focused on making a good game, then making a good book that this stuff hasn't even occurred to me.
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Suppose that Steampunk Crescendo doesn't specifically support desperate working class action with political significance
Well, that is what I am attempting to support. the setting part of the game is as deeply punk as I knew how to make it. I am not concerned about punk fashion (although I guess that is part of the culture), but more about the desperate action to try and make the world a better place in the face of greed and apathy.
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What would you like to be told about the game? What would get you most excited about it without being misleading?
Eero, this is an excellent question. If you want I can send you a link to the GameChef entry so you can see what it is about.
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I ask because my impression is that, while you can certainly pick a punk portion of the setting and a punk Goal and Drawback for your character, the other characters and Antagonist might be very much not punk... that is, unless you can orchestrate a group agreement of "let's do punk" during the setting-customizing phase. (Dave, please correct me if that's inaccurate!)
David, well, if you were to play the book as written, this is probably not true. There are certain tools that the GM has to keep the players down. For one, the PCs and Antagonists are at odds from square one (this introduces an immediate time sink on the players drive to their Goal). For another, the GM gets to set Goals and Drawbacks for the Antagonists as well. For a third, there is the establishment of several, large, influential organizations that are driven by greed and hubris. And finally, it is established that the NPCs are pretty much willing to accept their lot in life. It is a lot for the players to overcome, if the GM uses those tools. If they do not, there may be some happy unicorns in there somewhere.
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