What's a Good Gamist Game?
Ghostwheel:
So Ron, does my last on-topic reply help at all? I'm still not sure if I'm reinventing the wheel or covering new ground, and if a wheel is already invented, I'd rather use that instead of going through the massive amounts of work needed to finish this system I've been working on.
Callan S.:
Ghostwheel, has your PC ever died whilst playing 4e? Even then, did it default that resurrections were available? The only real way to lose (rather than just hit a speed bump) is a TPK, which you call very bad news. Even then if you make a new character at one level lower (or more so, at the same level), it's still little more than a speed bump.
Quote
I'm a great believer that statistically the average will eventually come out, and it just means that if the system is tight enough and works well mathematically that it won't result in something that leads to Very Bad News (like a TPK or something similar)
But really the average needs to result in a TPK? Otherwise all the manouvering for bonuses does not matter. If the average is set towards you winning, you can just ride the bell curve to victory, no manouvering required?
And as I said before, the length of these games distorts the idea of winning and losing. To go up a ladder in snakes and ladders does not mean you've won snakes and ladders. Each battle in D&D is really just a ladder (or regular die roll advancement) in a much larger, singular game session.
Quote
the possibility of losing permanently looming closer
What do you mean by this? What rules for PC death were you using?
Ghostwheel:
Wait... are we still talking about 4e...? If so, it's on your head if the moderator doesn't like this... :-P
As for your questions...
Quote from: Callan S. on May 01, 2012, 06:08:09 PM
Ghostwheel, has your PC ever died whilst playing 4e? Even then, did it default that resurrections were available? The only real way to lose (rather than just hit a speed bump) is a TPK, which you call very bad news. Even then if you make a new character at one level lower (or more so, at the same level), it's still little more than a speed bump.
My PC has never died while playing in 4e... mostly because they never even came close to dying, what with how powerful healing and buffs were, and only rarely did we need to spend a healing surge as long as the DM followed the encounter guidelines in the DMG. The DM (who was a bit newish to 4e as well in the one game I'm thinking of) finally got frustrated that everything was a cakewalk, and started throwing higher-level monsters at us which started to get to the point where we could barely hit things, and almost always got auto-hit, and the campaign soon ended after that.
Honestly, however, I don't see how that makes the slightest difference. The problems with 4e are far deeper than just how often you die (as I mentioned in my previous post), and to compound that, I don't like death being a speedbump. Making a new character is just as bad, since it disrupts the story and disconnects a player from something they're engaged and devoted to.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 01, 2012, 06:08:09 PM
But really the average needs to result in a TPK? Otherwise all the manouvering for bonuses does not matter. If the average is set towards you winning, you can just ride the bell curve to victory, no manouvering required?
Wait... what are you talking about? I don't know if this is non sequiter, or if I'm misunderstanding you, or if English is a second language for you, but I don't understand what it is you're asking. The average should be set towards the middle, neither winning nor losing, so that tactics matter and tip the scale to one side, or very stupid mistakes can lead to loss. Obviously loss does not mean a TPK, and there are safety nets to ensure that small mistakes don't automatically result in a loss, but I don't really see where you're going with this...
Quote from: Callan S. on May 01, 2012, 06:08:09 PM
What do you mean by this? What rules for PC death were you using?
Again, I don't like the "death is a speedbump" mentality, and prefer that players lose without dying if it can be finagled, or alternatively if they have to die (heroic sacrifice, jumped into lava, etc) that they can't just easily be brought back to life--that death matters.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 01, 2012, 06:08:09 PM
And as I said before, the length of these games distorts the idea of winning and losing. To go up a ladder in snakes and ladders does not mean you've won snakes and ladders. Each battle in D&D is really just a ladder (or regular die roll advancement) in a much larger, singular game session.
Again... I'm just not seeing your point :-/ Could you clarify what you mean, and/or what your point is?
Callan S.:
Quote
Making a new character is just as bad, since it disrupts the story and disconnects a player from something they're engaged and devoted to.
Well, this might be pivotal to the discussion if in priority it's ahead of events like a character dying. Apart from character death, the mechanics of D&D really don't have any losing conditions built into them.
Quote
The average should be set towards the middle
I honestly don't believe with such a complicated system it can be perfectly set to the middle - it's either towards the middle but on the winning side, or towards the middle but on the TPK side. Really in gamist terms, the more it's set towards the TPK side, the more of a challenge/a thrown down gauntlet it is (the more tactics it takes to get bonuses to counteract that tipping), in a 'oh yeah, well, we can take that' way (or in the internet parlance 'Challenge accepted'). If it being set towards TPK as just not making any sense to you, then atleast in how I use the word 'gamism', gamism might be a secondary priority to you? And something else comes in at first priority? Probably to do with what you mention above in terms of the story and what the players are devoted to. That's my hypothesis, anyway. Doesn't mean it's an apt hypothesis.
Quote
Obviously loss does not mean a TPK, and there are safety nets to ensure that small mistakes don't automatically result in a loss
Quote
and prefer that players lose without dying if it can be finagled
Well, what is 'loss' or 'lose' when you say it? Could you describe what you mean by it a bit more?
My snakes and ladders example is there to show that going down a snake is not losing (in how I use the word), but because a single D&D game runs over multiple sessions, it distorts this and it appears players have 'lost' a session, when it's merely a snake.
Ghostwheel:
Not perfectly--but as near as can be. That said, when there need to be tendencies, they need to be set in the PCs' favor so that they don't have a good chance of dying every fight.
And losses can be done in a myriad of ways. For example, if you're beaten by goblins or ogres, the party wakes up in jail cells, their enemy wanting to eat them soon, and from there they can make a daring escape. Or if they were beaten by an evil wizard, they might wake up in vats of arcane liquid ready to be experimented on. Or if they are beaten by a devil, the devil may force them to do it a favor rather than killing them. Or if they fail to kill the dragon, it might kidnap the princess, kill the king, and fly off.
So yeah, there are lots of ways to "lose" without actually having a TPK.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page