Hidden die rolls and hidden player decisions
fodazd:
Greetings.
Since this is my first thread here, I'd like to give some information about myself and my previous experience with roleplaying: My clear name is "Nico", and I'm from Austria (so sorry if my english is not perfect, my native language is german). I've been roleplaying for about six years now, with some different systems. Here is a list of the systems I have experience with, edition numbes are in parantheses if I know them:
-> Das schwarze Auge (1, 3, 4). I think this is called "The dark eye" in english.
-> D&D (1, 3.5, 4)
-> GURPS (4)
-> The Riddle of Steel
-> Streetfighter
-> oWoD, nearly all gamelines there are.
-> nWoD, mage.
-> Legend of the five rings (2, 3)
-> Star Wars D6 (2)
-> Star Wars Saga
-> Shadowrun (3, 4)
-> Ratten!. I don't know of an english version of this.
-> Rolemaster
-> Pendragon
-> Dresden Files
Over time, I have been playing in different groups with different styles of play. Right now, I am playing a GURPS-campaign where the characters are "normal humans" from earth and visit various other worlds through portals. A little bit like Stargate.
---
So, now about my actual question:
If I am the GM, I like to do all my rolls out in the open, so the players can see the results too. This helps me to convice them that I am in fact not "cheating" them by ignoring the results of the dice whenever I want (as some GMs I've played with did). However, the GURPS-rules explicitly state that the GM should hide his information rolls from the player (and our current GM does). The reason for this is that an open roll on perception, research, investigation or whatever would just kill the feeling of doubt and uncertainty these rolls are trying to evoke. I generally agree with that. It is kind of boring when you always know your character is right. Despite of that, I always get this uncomfortable feeling when the GM rolls the dice secretly.
A similar situation exists with hidden player decisions. We enjoy it when our characters are sometimes scheming against each other secretly. Of course, this requires that the players announce their actions to the GM without the other players knowing. This can also generate this great feeling of uncertainty, when you simply don't know who you can trust. Every character is pursuing another agenda, and some of these agendas may conflict with each other. However, this can create a very similar problem to the hidden dice: How do you know that the GM stays fair and neutral (that is, doesn't arbitrarily favor one character over another), if you can't be there to check for yourself?
So the real question is this: How do you balance the need for fairness with the need for a feeling of uncertainty? Have any of you been in similar situations in the past? Are there any known, smart ways to approaching this problem? Or do I just have to choose one and forget about the other?
Callan S.:
Hi,
I've been GM'ing some AD&D recently and I've felt similarly about the rogues sneaking and trap finding rolls. Also it bugs me that the player merely barks 'I sneak, I check for traps' and I have to jump and start rolling at their command - I'd prefer they have to do a task rather than just command. Yet if they roll, they know if they failed to find a trap. A recent idea (I haven't tested) is that the player rolls, but the GM has a secret D10 he rolls every so often. If it's a 1, then skill is -20%. If it's a 10, the skill is +20%. Granted within a range the player still knows if they failed or passed. But within +/-20% of their skill, they will not know, because the modifier could change the result.
More focused on your situation, you could have a box where as GM you secretly roll the dice into the box, close the lid, then sit it on the table. Latter the players can actually open the box and see the result. This probably lends itself to using D6's (with a lid that presses down on one side), as a D20 might roll around and show a different number once opened (creating a creepy Shrodinger effect). But if the die can be stabilised, it could work for any die.
Hmmm, I guess a GM could still roll and switch the result - perhaps the box is tall (with a wide, stable base) and as GM you have the box outside the GM screen and drop them down, see the result, then close the lid. That way you know the result, it can't have been tampered with, and it can be seen latter. Probably really can only be done with D6's, though.
Quote
However, this can create a very similar problem to the hidden dice: How do you know that the GM stays fair and neutral (that is, doesn't arbitrarily favor one character over another), if you can't be there to check for yourself?
Well, I'd say this is what dice and rules are for. Everyone has biases. If you have it that play can drift away from rules and 100% into the GM's decision and whatever biases he has, you better see that as a feature, because if you see it as a bug, you aught not be doing it. If you keep with rolling, the GM could record rolls and show them to the other player (they'd have to collude to cheat then - I'm assuming the problem is not cheating, but people who GM and like to indulge their own whims (which is basically everyone!))
fodazd:
Quote from: Callan S. on May 27, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
More focused on your situation, you could have a box where as GM you secretly roll the dice into the box, close the lid, then sit it on the table. Latter the players can actually open the box and see the result.
Yes, something like that would be great! Maybe with a little less "die occupation", because I don't have all that many D6's to put into boxes for extended periods of time. So, what I am looking for is a technique that can do the following:
-> The GM can roll without the players seeing the result.
-> The players then get some information based on this roll, but can't be certain about it's accuracy.
-> Once the accuracy of the information is revealed, the GM can prove to the players that the result of the roll hasn't been tampered with.
-> The players can then verify that the accuracy of the information they got really corresponded to the original roll.
-> ...Ideally without using too much real-life resources (dice and boxes everywhere).
Maybe this can be achieved by taking a picture of the roll? Most of us have a mobile phone with the capability to do that. Altough that still seems to be a little too much overhead... I am pretty sure there is a way to do this more effectively. As an IT-Student, I know some cryptography protocols that do something very similar to what I am looking for... Maybe I can cook something up based on those.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 27, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
Well, I'd say this is what dice and rules are for. Everyone has biases. If you have it that play can drift away from rules and 100% into the GM's decision and whatever biases he has, you better see that as a feature, because if you see it as a bug, you aught not be doing it. If you keep with rolling, the GM could record rolls and show them to the other player (they'd have to collude to cheat then - I'm assuming the problem is not cheating, but people who GM and like to indulge their own whims (which is basically everyone!))
I am seeing it as a bug, at least in situations where the characters are working against each other. In most other situations too, because if I know that the GM doesn't care about the rules, then I feel like my decisions as a player have no meaning anymore. This is acually why I am looking for a mechanic like this: I want my decisions to matter, and to be sure about that, I have to be certain that the GM follows the rules... And as a GM, I want the players to believe me when I say I follow the rules. So you're right: The problem here is not really "cheating" but GMs indulging on their own whims. Note: I don't suspect our current GM manipulates the dice. This is probably just me overreacting because I had some bad experiences with GMs who use the manipulation of hidden rolls as a railroading method.
About the recording of the rolls: Yes, if all rolls are recorded in some way, then it should be easy for the other players to determine if the rules were applied correctly. Maybe the actions of the player could be announced in secret, but the rolls for these actions could be subject to the same mechanic that applies to other "secret" rolls?
David Berg:
Quote from: fodazd on May 27, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
How do you balance the need for fairness with the need for a feeling of uncertainty?
Here's a formula I've gotten some mileage out of:
Public rolls for character performance, hidden target numbers for task difficulty, and revealed information from failure.
P1: "I try to break down the wooden door! I roll my d20... 18! I give it a truly mighty bash!"
GM: "The door gives, but does not break."
P1: "What?!"
GM: "You see some cracks in the wood, with the glint of something shiny underneath."
P1: "Oh! This door is something more than it appears!"
The key is the GM communicating that there is in fact a fictional reason for the surprising roll outcome. If the GM gets in the habit of always doing this, then fears of cheating the rules tend to fade, in my experience. (Cheating the spirit of play by randomly reinforcing all your wooden doors with adamantite is another issue.)
Hope this helps!
-David
way:
Why don't you just roll when the information is needed? Like, don't roll for a find traps or stealth when the rouge enters the dungeon. Roll it when the trap is about be activated or the rouge is about to be spotted! It's an instant action generator instead of a boring set-up roll.
If it's investigation or research you have to be a bit more creative. But then again, what's the point in a research roll that either lets the story to continue or blocks that path entirely? You can try to set the situation up so that the roll is needed later, in a heated situation. Or: make those rolls in the open, give them false information and be explicit that it is false information. But give them XP if they choose to pursue that path anyway. Tempt them!
Regards, way
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