Started by fodazd, May 27, 2012, 12:26:39 PM
QuoteHowever, this can create a very similar problem to the hidden dice: How do you know that the GM stays fair and neutral (that is, doesn't arbitrarily favor one character over another), if you can't be there to check for yourself?
Quote from: Callan S. on May 27, 2012, 08:34:28 PMMore focused on your situation, you could have a box where as GM you secretly roll the dice into the box, close the lid, then sit it on the table. Latter the players can actually open the box and see the result.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 27, 2012, 08:34:28 PMWell, I'd say this is what dice and rules are for. Everyone has biases. If you have it that play can drift away from rules and 100% into the GM's decision and whatever biases he has, you better see that as a feature, because if you see it as a bug, you aught not be doing it. If you keep with rolling, the GM could record rolls and show them to the other player (they'd have to collude to cheat then - I'm assuming the problem is not cheating, but people who GM and like to indulge their own whims (which is basically everyone!))
Quote from: fodazd on May 27, 2012, 12:26:39 PMHow do you balance the need for fairness with the need for a feeling of uncertainty?
Quote from: David Berg on May 28, 2012, 04:51:40 AMThe key is the GM communicating that there is in fact a fictional reason for the surprising roll outcome. If the GM gets in the habit of always doing this, then fears of cheating the rules tend to fade, in my experience. (Cheating the spirit of play by randomly reinforcing all your wooden doors with adamantite is another issue.)
Quote from: way on May 29, 2012, 03:52:11 AMIf it's investigation or research you have to be a bit more creative. But then again, what's the point in a research roll that either lets the story to continue or blocks that path entirely? You can try to set the situation up so that the roll is needed later, in a heated situation. Or: make those rolls in the open, give them false information and be explicit that it is false information. But give them XP if they choose to pursue that path anyway. Tempt them!
Quote from: David Berg on May 29, 2012, 02:16:25 PMBetter still might be to scrap Research rolls entirely. It sounds like you are getting exactly zero bang for your buck on those.
Quote from: David Berg on May 29, 2012, 02:16:25 PMThese approaches lose the difficulty-modeling simulation of "how likely is this character to be able to research this topic?" Is that okay? Even if it's not perfect, is it worth it, considering the current costs of the simulation?
Quote from: way on May 30, 2012, 04:36:48 AMThere is a method that is used in D&D 4E to speed up things: prerolling results. This might be used here as well: preroll a bunch of numbers with the usual dice setups (with 4E for example, only d20s). The GM writes down the results, but keeps the list away from the players. Any time a hidden roll is necessary, the GM just takes the next one in the list. He might also write the task next to the number, so everyone can see that after play. It's not perfect but very fast and does not disrupt play.
QuoteSo you're right: The problem here is not really "cheating" but GMs indulging on their own whims.
QuoteHmm... You still can't verify that the GM didn't manipulate anything with this method. If the GM knows when a particular secret roll will be made (which is usually the case), then the outcome could be statically determined without anyone noticing. Not really much better than just the basic method of hiding the rolls without the players being able to check.
Quote from: Daniel B on May 30, 2012, 07:18:08 PMHere, the GM can again give a description of the DC, but secretly bump the DC with another die-roll. In this example, the DC for sneaking past the dragon may be DC 40. With bumping, the new DC is 36 + d8.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 30, 2012, 09:40:36 PMJust on this, I said nothing along those lines. A GM following their whims is all you ever have - the vaunted 'neutral GM' is a myth. If you want neutral, use a machine, not a human. Only use a human if you enjoy using something/someone that will indulge whims rather than be a machine. That's what I'm saying - if PC's are plotting against each other, it needs to be in regards to points or something that rules can and do deal with, or else if it's something only a GM can judge, then the players themselves have made it about something that will involve a GM indulging his whims.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 30, 2012, 09:40:36 PMHave the random dice rolls numbered. The players call out numbers at random. This determines what roll is used (GM can even note next to the number what it was used for in play)
Quote from: Erik Weissengruber on May 31, 2012, 09:34:07 AMThe tense expectation of when the blows will start to fall exists in the fiction. It also exists in the resolution procedure that the players are engaging.That parallel between fictional situation and player behaviour is rarely accomplished in RPGs. I love it when it does happen.