How much do you make?

[LloydBrown]

Well, not so tactlessly, but Ron made this claim

Most of the people who publish using the advice/aid from this site end up making substantial money.

and I have to question two aspects of that. 

For one, the "most of" part.  But we'll wait until we discuss the "substantial money" part.  Exactly what do you consider substantial?  $2,000 can be great money if it all flows in within one week and you only spent 40 hours to get it.  On the other hand, the same two grand can be awfully disappointing after 1,000 hours of work, $1,600 spent in getting it, and a year of waiting. 

Let's use a simple meter:  how many people earn enough to live on above and beyond a break-even on their RPGs? (assuming normal independent living here, no basement-dwellers!). 

[guildofblades]

Hi Lloyd,

I have never minded sharing this sort of information. Presently my salary is 28,500 per year.  Plus us partners may or may not pocket a profit sharing pay out come end of the year. If we opt to do that, that could anywhere from $100 to $5K or so. Just depends how much, if any, we want to take out of our current savings as we save up for some larger acquisitions on the horizon (like commercial property).

I know 28.5K might now seem like much to some folks, especially those on the coasts where cost of living is higher, but here I michigan, and in particular the city I live in, its not too bad. That is, or at least was a few years ago, the average salary here in Michigan. Considering we spent years building the company up, working part time, and never drawing a penny out, I am happy with where we have gone so far. And my current salary is a lot nicer than the $18k I drew last year. Near the end of this year we'll take a hard look at our sale figures and gross profits and make decisions on weather we can afford to raise those salaries. They are still sub par in our minds and we won't be very content until they hit at least 40-45K. Of course, I'll never be truly satisfied until its 4.5 million, but hey, gotta start somewhere.

Ok, that all being said, no, our RPG lines don't make this all possible. They are profitable the way we publish them and do add to our bottom line, but, they only generate a small amount of revenue compared to our board game product lines.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[daMoose_Neo]

Twilight is a poor showing, but for my title the Imp Game, after GenCon, I'm looking at about $500 in sales off $50 investment, about $500 sales on $118 for books, made about $45 through RPGNow and some minimal advertisement, and about another $400 through distribution sales. So, by September, I'm looking at about 1500 sales off a $80 creation ($60 for artwork, $20 for layout) and print costs. The sheer amount of time, I don't know quite how to quantify that as most of it wrote itself as I sat in the breakroom at work, running things through my mind. So, $1000 free and clear for just dicking around? I like those numbers ^_^

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Adept Press isn't my career but it is a business, owned by me.

It pulls in about $5000 a year, roughly. A tidy second income, I think.

Best,
Ron

[chadu]

Atomic Sock Monkey Press made around $1800 (gross) for 2004; I think my net for 2004 was around $1300.

Right now, I'm pushing $3000 (gross) for 2005; my net thus far is something like $1600.

Of course, that not counting "paying myself for writing and layout" -- in that case, I'm still in the red for 2005 net.

CU

[LloydBrown]

Is that 5 grand net profit or gross revenues from sales, Ron?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lloyd,

I'm not prepared* to list my entire financial assets/model here. The $5000 figure is after subtracting expenses of certain kinds, mainly obvious ones like travel and printing. It also fails to take into account a considerable amount of stock that was sold during 2003-2004, but the money for which was not given to me by the middleman. So it's a squishy "after expenses" estimate for those years.

The problem with this thread is that "a lot" or "enough" or "successful" are not meaningful terms across publishers. Since my financial model defines success as "make more money than you invest," with no inclusion or exclusion of "living wage" as a concept (i.e. ignoring it), then my little profits are actually quite huge, gross, stinking profits compared with another person who makes (say) $18,000 but is trying to use that as his salary for his career, while raising a family.

When in doubt, I always step back and look at what has happened to almost all publishers of almost all role-playing games. There are those "almosts" that get up your nose, too, but I'll stand by them. What happens? Total loss on investment. That's right, total. Plus debt, lawsuits, bankruptcy, arrears ... all those nifty things. That's what happens when you publish a role-playing game, going by the majority, and that generalization has applied fully across the whole financial spectrum, whether you are talking about a $10,000 outlay for your hardback called "Broadswords and Balrogs," or a $40 million investment in a major product push.

Maybe this will help with the "mosts." I'll add to the list of such disasters: the companies that have disguised their bankrupt status by constant infusion of outside funds, such as inheritance or relatives or from another source of employment. Several of the so-called "successful" companies fall into this category, and I have another word for them: failures.

See, what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter whether Bob makes more than Joe or whether Billy's take is "enough" by some external standard or another. Based on the dismal, even repellent track record of the so-called "role-playing industry," not going bust is the basic achievement. What matters is the binary metric: whether you make money at all or you fail to make any money. that is the binary metric. Bob, Joe, and Billy, simply by being in the black, are already in another universe than most role-playing publishers.

And it is astounding to many, although not to me, that making money (at all) is the standard, although not universal outcome for people who have built their own financial model based on using information from this site. Note that their v various models are not identical, nor is there a "Forge way." That's what the Forge is about: for the publisher to build a financial model that makes sense and serves his or her needs. Thus far, it is doing so.

Best,
Ron

* Literally, meaning logistically, not ethically.

[TonyLB]

Because I'm a wee bit obsessive, I can give you dollar figures that include everything down to my parking stubs.  I have, since January 27th, made $2736 on selling Capes.  In that same time I have spent (or committed to spend) $2904.  That puts me $168 in the red, so far.... in one sense.

In another sense:  I've got a very large amount of stock on hand (having jumped a third printing for GenCon to make sure that we didn't run out of the second printing).  Quite likely, I have more than 100 copies.  My inventory control only synchronizes at certain times, and this isn't even vaguely one of them, so I can only give estimates.  So I've all but paid back my third printing, and every book I sell is now pure profit.  So that's tangible stock in hand.  I also have a fair amount of investment in reusable equipment, both for what I've done so far and what I expect to do.  And I have a certain (probably pretty beefy) amount of sales not yet reported to me.

Then there are the intangibles:  I've put somewhere between 30 and 50 complimentary copies out into the world to news organizations, award committees, and just plain people I think are cool.  I've sold quite a few copies to retailers at deep discounts.  I've invested heavily in some communal advertising with like-minded publishers.  I've got gorgeous art in the pipeline, already paid in the budget.  And all of that is gambling:  either it will grow my business substantially, or it won't.

So there's the roughly "objective" evidence.  Here's my subjective take:  Since January I have, at a cost of one hundred and sixty eight dollars, created a business and committed fully to giving it the best future I can create for it.  I've gotten to attend GenCon at a profit (and how many gamers can say that?)  And I have a stake in this wonderful game that is publishing:  it's not abstract to me, I'm in it to my elbows.

I'm not making a profit.  But my losses are, to me as a person, money very well spent.

[Brennan Taylor]

Honestly, Tony, you are very close to breaking even within the first year of operations, and that is not something most businesses can boast. Of course, you are doing this without messy overhead like paying yourself anything.

[MatrixGamer]

Because I'm a wee bit obsessive, I can give you dollar figures that include everything down to my parking stubs.  I have, since January 27th, made $2736 on selling Capes.  In that same time I have spent (or committed to spend) $2904.  That puts me $168 in the red, so far.... in one sense.

This gets off into the realm of accounting, which definitely connects to profit. You sell $2,700 on capes. You spent $2,900. BUT you've not sold all the stock. Most of that $2,900 in capes are still in your possesion. They are an asset you will sell later. Only the cost of purchase of the stock that sold is considered in deciding if you made money. So if you sold $700 worth of stock then you made $2,000.

My business is a little different because it is a combination of game making/sell, printing and puppeteering. In terms of total sales we might make $4000 to $5000 this year but we are not making a profit due to expenses. I'm confident we're moving in that direction. We're dropping my wife's puppet theater (when never made money) doing more fairs with puppets (We did walkabout puppeting at a show just before GenCon.) I'm forever trying out new product packaging looking for better sellers and of course looking to increase efficency in production.

As to what is enough, we all have to ask ourselves what we want to spend our time doing? I've lost money at gaming for years but enjoyed the work. I think I will start making money soon - but that is in part due to spending years building up contacts and networking. So if you want to work in this market place you can. It isn't lucretive but it can be fun. Just keep your costs low.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

PS: Keep your day job! My university social work job keeps my wife in puppets.

[Blankshield]

By most external standards, Blank Shield Press is a financial mess.  However, I'm deleriously happy with it.

Why?  Because it's meeting or exceeding the goals I set myself.

Last year, BSP existed to be a tax shelter.  I knew I would produce no saleable product, but accumulate expenses.  I set it up, tracked expenses, and got a refund from the government at the appropriate time.  100% success.

This year, BSP exists to be a tax shelter, AND I wanted Death's Door to pay for itself.  Which it did, in spades.  I don't have my final numbers yet (waiting on info from Ad Astra), but I know that I have paid for my print runs of Death's Door, Brick Battles and my forge booth share.  I haven't paid for my T-shirts yet, but I wasn't expecting to.  In addition, I will be able to write off the expenses associated with going to GenCon, which will mean another refund from the governenment when the time comes.  100% success, with some exceeded expectations, to boot.

So am I paying for my home in the suburbs, and supporting my wife and three kids?  Hell no.  But - and this is the really important part - I'm not trying to.  BSP is doing exactly what it's supposed to, which makes it 100% a success.

James

[Luke]

Last year BW had an income of $25,825. But I had about $30,000 in expenses.

[John Harper]

Hey Luke,

Are expenses of that magnitude standard for you? Or was this year a big money drain with the printing of Revised and such? If you made $25K next year, would you turn a profit?

[Luke]

Hey Luke,

Are expenses of that magnitude standard for you? Or was this year a big money drain with the printing of Revised and such? If you made $25K next year, would you turn a profit?

Well, I bought a new computer and put out the Monster Burner and went to cons very extensively. It was a high-cost year. But not terribly higher than the year before. It was also a low income year, because BW was sold out for half of it.

I'm very curious what this year will look like. BW is in the black, as is the Monbu, but I might have to reprint both before year is out!

-L

[Paul Czege]

Sorry for the delayed response. Danielle and I went almost immediately from GenCon to her sister's Las Vegas wedding, and so I'm just now catching up on conversations which happened during that time.

Half Meme Press 2004 gross receipts from sales, as reported on Schedule C: $4,276.

After cost of goods sold, and expenses, Half Meme Press 2004 gross profit: $1,912.

Paul