The Forge Archives

Hi everyone,

Most of this is for Matt, but comments from anyone who has downloaded the game are welcome too.

I played Kayfabe last night and had a fine time, and I'm working on the Forge review. However, I need some designer feedback and a better perspective on the functions of the game.

My biggest question concerns the narration within a given wrestling match. We figured out very quickly that the players are not competing in the sense of one wrestler beating another - it really doesn't matter who "wins" a given exchange, as all 6's rolled generate Heat. [Who rolls more 6's does matter when we start talking about injuries and stuff like that, but that's another topic.] What we didn't figure out is how the two sets of narration interact.

Let me be specific. My Heel, Gentleman Joe, squared off with his Face opponent, the Flying Squirrel. It's round one. The Squirrel has more personal Heat, so that player narrates "what goes on." Then I get to narrate "what goes on."

Here's my question: are we both narrating the same minute of ring carnage? Or does the first player get the first 30 seconds, roughly, and the second player get the second? Let's assume for the moment that we aren't talking about shooting or any other kind of conflict about narrating what happens. Let's assume that both players are happy, for Round One, just to generate Heat and let one another narrate without interference. Again: what then are we narrating? The same minute? Or 30 seconds + 30 seconds?

Best,
Ron

Interesting question...especially since I had read it that the Squirrel would go for the full minute and the Joe for the next minute.

Sorry Ron, I totally missed this post for some reason.  I'm glad you had a chance to play.

QuoteLet me be specific. My Heel, Gentleman Joe, squared off with his Face opponent, the Flying Squirrel. It's round one. The Squirrel has more personal Heat, so that player narrates "what goes on." Then I get to narrate "what goes on."
Here's my question: are we both narrating the same minute of ring carnage? Or does the first player get the first 30 seconds, roughly, and the second player get the second?

Each time a wrestling roll is made 1 minute of match time is considered to have passed.  If 2 players have narrated then  2 minutes should have passed.  Here's an example (based on your example):

Player 1 begins narrating the match.  He describes a few moves (punch, punch, clothesline, etc) Then makes a wrestling roll.  If he fails to roll at least one 6 he must surrender the narration to Player 2.

One minute of match time has passed, regardless of the number of 6's rolled.

If Player 1 rolls at least one 6 he can either continue to narrate or pass the narration to player 2.  In this instance he chooses to give the narration to player 2.

Player 2 begins narrating a few moves and makes a wrestling roll.  He fails to roll a 6 so the narration switches back to player 1.  Again, another minute of match time has passed.

I thought the rules were pretty clear on this, but I will put an example of play in to clairify.

If you have any more questions I will get back sooner (now that I know the post is here).

,Matt[/quote]

Hi Matt,

Oops. Fuck. (Terry, Doc Midnite, was the GM. I duck and point at him!) This means the review has to be delayed so we can play some more, for which I apologize.

Oh well, the good news is that we all made some seriously Wrong wrestlers, in the best sense, that is. Let's see ...

Gentleman Joe (Eugene Christopher Smith)
Wrestling 3, Work Rate 2 (+2 = 4), Mic Skills 4 (+1 = 5), Clout 3
Heel
Trademark Move: Polite Bow (throw), Finisher: Clothesline Strut
Has a valet, Versatile 2, Perks, Acting experience
Works stiff, Prima donna, Flawed psychology, Refuses to job

In other words, a flashy, evil, smirking hypocrite. He was tons of fun.

The Mechanic (Billy Thudd)
Wrestling 5 (+4 = 9 with Strength), Work Rate 4, Mic Skills 1, Clout 2
Face
Trademark Move: Roaring Squash, Finisher: Git Outta the Ring
Brawler, Muscular
Not good in short matches, Has-been

In other words, the old-schooler who's kind of overwhelmed by the new high-gloss, high-budget thing.

I've got lots more to say and ask about Kayfabe, especially in terms of character definition and development, so stay tuned.

Best,
Ron

QuoteThe Mechanic (Billy Thudd)
Wrestling 5 (+4 = 9 with Strength), Work Rate 4, Mic Skills 1, Clout 2

Hey Ron, I just wanted to clairify that the bonus dice a wrestler gets for the muscles asset only apply when the wrestler is using strength dependent moves.  For example:

If The Mechanic''s player narrates a move set consisting of high flying moves he would not get the bonus dice, but if the move set consisted primarily of brawling moves he would.

,Matt

Hello Matt,

Never fear - we comprehended the "when using strength moves only" and similar rules without trouble.

Here is my main concern about Kayfabe: the relationship between all the descriptors and actual play. You have chosen to use the "portrait" method of character creation, in that the character is essentially finished and fixed in terms of image, style, and basic tactics. I suggest that in doing so, you have diminished an opportunity to develop these things during the course of marching to the Pay-per-view.

Contrast one set of descriptors to another:
1: born into the business, previous acting experience, has a valet, has-been
2: works stiff, refuses to job, prima donna

The #1 descriptors and anything like them are excellent for starting a character out. The #2 descriptors and anything like them, unfortunately, act as constraints.

Now I'm a big fan of creative constraints, so it's not the actual limit that concerns me. It's the fact that we already have the excellent constraints of Heat, Clout, and Work Rate to consider, and I think the #2 descriptors may create a "same-ness" over the course of many bouts. Your character is essentially "done" at character creation and - frankly - all the creative fun is pretty much over before you play. [Note that I do not consider the "improvement" changes in the characters to be especially important; Kayfabe is about personality, image, and social tactics.]

I suggest that the solution is to permit many of these descriptors to be generated through bouts themselves. Does the guy work stiff? Then he gets the descriptor "works stiff" in terms of how the fans see him, and now has to accord with that descriptor. See, what you do becomes how they see you, and then how they see you constrains what you have to do. It fits perfectly.

This concept applies especially to the concept of Heel and Face. Even in our short session of play, with six fights, the classic alignment brick-wall appeared when one player just got a hair up his ass and started playing his Face as a Heel. It was annoying, frankly - and the rules had nothing in them to deal with it except that "Faces don't do stuff like that."

Now, we could put in all sorts of penalties for acting off-Type, but that's a losing strategy - it sets up a challenge to the cunning player to circumvent the penalties, and of course they'll succeed in doing so. I suggest instead that the Face/Heel designation be made provisional to start. The guy's billed as a Face, for instance, but only after the first series of matches is he "really" a Face. Furthermore, everyone gets re-assessed in this regard following every full series of matches. If I understand the biz correctly, this is pretty much consistent with the image-games that really happen.

I think this approach to many of the descriptors and to the Face/Heel status is much more powerful than the existing "portrait" approach, because the constraints become a matter of creativity and development in play, rather than a set of "thou shalt play like" from the outset.

Best,
Ron

Quote
Here is my main concern about Kayfabe: the relationship between all the descriptors and actual play. You have chosen to use the "portrait" method of character creation, in that the character is essentially finished and fixed in terms of image, style, and basic tactics.  I suggest that in doing so, you have diminished an opportunity to develop these things during the course of marching to the Pay-per-view.

That's not necessarily true, because the Booker can asign new Merits and Flaws throughout the game based on the actions of the wrestler.  It's only mentioned once in the "Advencement" section so you may have missed it.  Let's say a wrestler starts shooting a lot in his matches.  The Booker can asign the "Works Stiff" flaw to him or even the bad reputation flaw.

In regards to style and tactics, most wrestlers maintain the same style throughout their career.  Chris Benoit has always been considered a technical wrestler just as Rob Van Dam has always been a high flyer.  

QuoteContrast one set of descriptors to another:
1: born into the business, previous acting experience, has a valet, has-been
2: works stiff, refuses to job, prima donna

The #1 descriptors and anything like them are excellent for starting a character out. The #2 descriptors and anything like them, unfortunately, act as constraints.

All the #2 descriptors you mentioned are supposed to be constraints which I've included to balance the characters.  I do, howeveer, see what you mean and I think I have a solution.  

I am considering restricting all the Descriptors that are either reputation based (works stiff, refuses to job) or Earned (has a valet, untapped resource, friends in high places).  These descriptors can only be awarded/asigned through play either by the will of the Booker or through contact negotiations.  I have already done this with assets like "Creative Control" which can only be gained through contract negotiations.  

What concerns me is that there will not be enough Flaws available for players to balance out all the Assets they want.  This will limit characters at game start, but I think I can get around this by having contract negotiations after each PPV (not very realistic, but I think I can suppress the simulationist in me enough to get past it).

Quote[Note that I do not consider the "improvement" changes in the characters to be especially important; Kayfabe is about personality, image, and social tactics.]

I'm not sure what you're refering to here.  DO you mean the assets that give you extra dice or are you talking about charcater advancement?

QuoteThis concept applies especially to the concept of Heel and Face. Even in our short session of play, with six fights, the classic alignment brick-wall appeared when one player just got a hair up his ass and started playing his Face as a Heel. It was annoying, frankly - and the rules had nothing in them to deal with it except that "Faces don't do stuff like that."

This is something that is meant to be dealt with in the "Locker Room" portion of the game.  There are no specific rules for such an occurance because the results of such acts will vary depending on the wrestler.  That sork of thing is left to the Booker's discretion.  If I was the booker I would make the guy Job for the next couple shows to teach him a lesson.

QuoteI suggest instead that the Face/Heel designation be made provisional to start. The guy's billed as a Face, for instance, but only after the first series of matches is he "really" a Face.

When the game begins every wrestler is asigned his Face/Heel status by the player/writing staff.  A big part of being a wrestler is "doing what you're told."  The writers provide you with a script and you're supposed to follow it.  The desission to follow or ignore that script is where the drama of the game comes in.  It is up to the writing staff whether or not a wrestler is a Face or a Heel, not the wrestler.  Now fan reaction can often play a role in whether a wrestler is a Face or a Heel, but in the end the writers make the desicion.  If the fans are cheering for a Heel, that is an indication of either poor writing or a disobediant wrestler.

QuoteFurthermore, everyone gets re-assessed in this regard following every full series of matches. If I understand the biz correctly, this is pretty much consistent with the image-games that really happen.

If I move contarcct negotiation to the end of each PPV this will be exactly what will happen.

Thanks for the feedback Ron.

,Matt

Hi Matt,

I saw the booker-assigned Merits and Flaws. However, I think as it stands, the character-creation assortment overrides this effect. You really have a very complete wrestler when you're done with character creation as currently written, and I think it's far too complete as it stands - potential future changes are irrelevant to this point. I'm talking about starting with an emptier cup, not about whether you can change-out or re-mix a full cup later.

I don't understand your concern about "balance" at all. Is there any reason in the world to keep the number of Merits equal to the number of Flaws? I can see it for the starting ones, but as time goes by, who cares? Especially since many of them do not affect actual in-match scores (although some do).

Your description of "punishing" the player/character with jobbing is a classic example of what I recommend not doing. All you'll do is set up a tug-of-war that you cannot win. If the player feels like playing the guy as a Heel, I suggest running with it, and designing the system to run with it.

I think your discussion of the Face/Heel issue is missing my point ... I am not talking about the wrestler deciding to be a Face or a Heel over time. I am talking about a weird confluence between fans, writers, and wrestler that results in "real" Face or Heel status, which has a self-reinforcing effect on future fan expectations, writer's scripts, and wrestler decisions. In other words, if Mean Gene ends up taking a nasty shot and gains a lot of sympathy in a match, and the player decides to "be a gentleman about it," ol' Gene is looking mighty Face-like. H'm! say the writers, that could be a neat dramatic twist - and they write him as a "surprise Face" from now on. Gene takes care to be a really good guy in the ring, garnering lots of respect from the Smart fans for his professionalism. And people talk about the legendary bout in which Gene's "good side" appeared, and the name "Mean Gene" becomes kind of a fond recognition rather than a literal signal of Heel-dom like it once was.

All of Kayfabe, it seems to me, occurs at this funny boundary or connection-point among fans, writers, and the wrestler himself. It doesn't make any sense to try to tease these effects apart or say which of them is "causing" anything like a change in Face/Heel status or anything else about the wrestler.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Very minor point: in my bracketed note, I was referring to "character advancement," i.e. improvements in the scores as such, not bonuses from Merits or anything like that. I was referring to it in order to remove it from muddying the waters of my point.

QuoteI saw the booker-assigned Merits and Flaws. However, I think as it stands, the character-creation assortment overrides this effect. You really have a very complete wrestler when you're done with character creation as currently written, and I think it's far too complete as it stands - potential future changes are irrelevant to this point. I'm talking about starting with an emptier cup, not about whether you can change-out or re-mix a full cup later.

I gathered that from your post and it makes a lot of sense.  As a player I've always been more into making characters than actually playing them; I guess that comes through in my game design.

QuoteI don't understand your concern about "balance" at all. Is there any reason in the world to keep the number of Merits equal to the number of Flaws? I can see it for the starting ones, but as time goes by, who cares?

I agree with you 100% and that is how it's set up.  Only during character creation do Assets and Flaws have to be equal.  After the game begins the number of Assets and Flaws can vary drasticly.

QuoteYour description of "punishing" the player/character with jobbing is a classic example of what I recommend not doing. All you'll do is set up a tug-of-war that you cannot win. If the player feels like playing the guy as a Heel, I suggest running with it, and designing the system to run with it.

The system is designed to do just that, which is why the players play the "writing staff" as well as the wrestlers.  If a player wants to play his wrestler as a Face instead of a Heel, all he has to do is write it into the script during the Booking Committee.  

I think I missunderstood you earlier.  I was thinking that the "Wrester" desided to act like a heel.  Aside from working a Face/Heel turn into the storyline I'm not sure what I can do rules wise to deal with a player roleplaying his character improperly.  

QuoteI think your discussion of the Face/Heel issue is missing my point ... I am not talking about the wrestler deciding to be a Face or a Heel over time. I am talking about a weird confluence between fans, writers, and wrestler that results in "real" Face or Heel status, which has a self-reinforcing effect on future fan expectations, writer's scripts, and wrestler decisions.

I think I see your point now.  You are refering to the difference between scripted Heel/Face titles and fan impossed Heel/Face titles.

The thing is, whether or not you are a Face or Heel doesn't matter, at least as far as rules go.  Kayfabe is about Heat, and Heat has nothing to do with whether you're a good guy or a bad guy; it's all about interest.  Lance Storm is a Heel, always has been, but that doesn't change the fact that I love watching him wrestle.  The Heat he garners from my "interest" in him has nothing to do with his Heel/Face status.

What I'm getting at is that whether or not the fans like or dislike a wrestler is irrelevant.  If it was relevent every wrestler would want to be a Face and that simply isn't the case.  What's important is a wrestler's Heat.  

The titles of Face and Heel are just that, Titles.  The only purpose they serve is as a guide to how you write the storylines.  How the titles are asigned is unimportant which is why there are no set rules for it.  perhaps I should simply make this more clear in the rules.

Let me know if I'm still missing your point.

,Matt

Hi Matt,

We were doing fine right up until that last part. No, I am not distinguishing between "the difference between scripted Heel/Face titles and fan impossed Heel/Face titles." I am saying that making that distinction is a mistake. I am saying that calling a wrestler a Heel or a Face should be considered an outcome of the interaction between those two influences, without trying to tease them apart.

Let me be clear about my recommendation.

1) Begin with the wrestler called a Heel or a Face, exactly as you have it. Emphasize that this designation is provisional.

2) Assess the wrestler during the first set of matches. Is he still a Heel or a Face? Are any Merits or Flaws arising from how he behaved during the matches? [Here I am also stating that one cannot begin play with, e.g., "works stiff," but acquires it as a result of working stiff.]

Note that acquiring such Flaws, for instance, will carry the behavioral obligation written into the Flaw. From now on, if the wrestler fails to try to hurt the opponent during a match, he's gone "off-image" and might lose some Heat.

3) If it becomes necessary, change the designation of the character, if the accumulated profile (e.g. "works stiff" plus anything and everything else he's acquired) indicates it. Keep this nice and snappy and loose, no need to add new rules like "Heel points" to do it.

With any luck, I have demonstrated (a) that I already understand your points about Heat and (b) that my suggestions are helping to focus on that priority rather than detracting from it, which I think the current rules are doing.

Best,
Ron

I see things much clearer now and I think I may be a step ahead of you now.

I've recently taken the "each player must create an equal number of Heels and Faced" out of the game.  I did this thinking that players may really like all teh heel wrestlers and when it comes time to choose the Roster you'd end up with no faces.  I figured by leaving that aspect of the character ambiguous at first players can determine as they go which wrestlers are Heels and which are faces.

I may have solved the problem 2 weeks ago and not realized it until just now.

What I plan to do (and I think this is in part what you were suggesting) is have a wrestler's Face/Heel status remain ambiguous for his first few matches, or even his first series depending on how long you intend to play.  Then the Booking Committee can make a desision about his role in the federation.

QuoteNote that acquiring such Flaws, for instance, will carry the behavioral obligation written into the Flaw. From now on, if the wrestler fails to try to hurt the opponent during a match, he's gone "off-image" and might lose some Heat.

A lot of the Assets and Flaws in Kayfabe take into account the fact that most wrestling fans are not "smart" about the business which is why I am reluctant to have "Wrestles Stiff" incure a Heat penalty when not roleplayed.  Doing so would cloud the definition of what Heat is.  Most fans are not going to know that Vampiro wrestles stiff, or that Hulk Hogan refuses to job to certain wrestlers, so such things are unlikely to effect Heat.  

So, this leaves me with a dilema.  What do you do when a player doesn't roleplay his flaws?  Losing Heat doesn't always apply, nor does losing Clout.

However, if I make the changes regarding what Assets and Flaws you can take at character creation there is no hurt in simply removing an "aquired" Flaw.  Take the "Wrestles Stiff" flaw.  That will now be considered a reputation flaw that can only be gained through play.  It will have an effect on how the wrestler is treated by the writers and other wrestlers, but impose no real requirement on the player's part.  If the wrestler goes a while without working stiff the reputation will simply go away.  Just because Vampiro has wrestled stiff in the past doesn't mean he's required to.

Here's now things stand now.  The existing list of Assets and Flaws will be broken down into the following categories.

Background:
Things like Muscles, Canadian, High Flyer, drug addiction and Flawed Psychology.  Can be taken at character creation and represent existing descriptors.  Some can be gained or removed later in the game through roleplaying.  Obviously, things like "Canadian" can not be removed, but a character can gain the Muscles and Drug addiction Asset and Flaw through the use of steroids.

Reputation:
Things like Trustworthy, Primadona, Refuses to Job, and injury prone.  These represent how other wrestlers and insiders view your wrestler.  They have a direct effect on your backstage interaction but are a result, not a cause of your wrestler's in-ring activities.  These can only be gained/removed through play.

Contract Options:
Things like Perks, Creative control, Has a Valet, Has a Manager, and Insurance.  These can only be gained or lost through contract negotiations after each PPV in exchange for cash.

Does this work better?  Seems to to me.

,Matt

Fantastic, Matt! It's exactly what I'm looking for. And on reflection, I think that your solution to the Heel/Face thing is just right - if the dude doesn't work stiff, then he doesn't, erase the descriptor without it being a big deal.

Did I mention, by the way, that the actual wrestling narration, as well as the various skits and locker room stuff, was really fun? It was.

Best,
Ron

THanks Ron.

Here is a list of what I have in mind for the Assets/Flaws breakdown.  

I've included a category called "Style" which is new.  I've noticed that everyone who has made a character has taken one of the listed Assets, so I figured I put them in their own category and each player can take one for free as their wrestler's preference.  Keep in mind that wrestlers are not limited to fighting in these styles.  I've added a shoot style for former shoot fighters turned wrestler like Ken Shamrock.  It doesn't mean they have to shoot, but that's what they're good at.  I've also added "Risk Taker" to represent guys like Spike Dudley and Tony Mamaluke who just get the snot beat out of them and rarely get injured.

Style
Versatile (+1 to "All" Wrestling Rolls)
Technical Wrestler (+2 to Related Wrestling Rolls)
Brawler (+2 to Related Wrestling Rolls)
Submission (+2 to Related Wrestling Rolls)
High Flyer (+2 to Related Wrestling Rolls)
Shoot (+2 to Related Wrestling Rolls)
Risk taker (-2 to All Injuries)

Backgrounds
Assets
  Trained by a legend (Heat & Wrestling Bonus)
  Canadian (Heat Bonus)
  Legacy (Heat Bonus)
  Web Site (Heat Bonus)
  Match Specialty (Wrestling Bonus)
  Good Looking (Heat Bonus)
  Muscular (Heat Bonus)
  Married into the Business (Clout Bonus)
  Match Psychology (Workrate Bonus)
  Born into the Business (Clout Bonus)
  Established Fan Base (Heat Bonus)
  Huge (Heat Bonus)
  Worked in Japan (Wrestling Bonus)
  Acting Experience (Mic Skills Bonus)
Flaws
  Speach Imparement (Negative to Mic Skills)
  Unattractive (Negative to Heat)
  Has Been (Negative to Heat)
  Nagging Injury (Permanent to Injury)
  Flawed Psychology (Negative to Work Rate)
  Overweight (Negative to Heat)
  Small Build (Negative to Heat)
  Drug/Alcohol Problem (Negative to Wrestling)
  Blown-Up  (Negative to Wrestling)

Reputation
Good Reputation
Trustworthy
Jobber
In It for the Money
Works Stiff
Bad Reputation
Primadonna
Refuses to Job
Untapped Resource
Injury Prone

Contract Options
Has a Valet
Has a Manager
Creative Control
Insurance
Perks

If anyone can think of any addition Assets or Flaws that fit into these categories please send them my way.

QuoteDid I mention, by the way, that the actual wrestling narration, as well as the various skits and locker room stuff, was really fun? It was.

That's good to hear Ron.
The backstage stuff has been my biggest concern which is probably why the assets and flaws were a problem.  Hopefully I'm on the road to fixing that.  I've got 4 months - wish me luck.

,Matt[/b]

On a somewhat tangental note, a college friend of mine was an accomplished shoot wrester.  I can offer two recommendations.

1) If you ever get a chance to watch a shoot wrestling demo.  Do so.  You can't beat it for the shear "holy shit, he just took that dude OUT!" factor

2) Do NOT offer to be the demo guy.  That stuff is far more painful than any karate kick to the head.

I went from a balanced boxing stance, to on the ground, to completely helpless, to utter agony in about 3 seconds.

Hi Matt,

Here are my last questions arising from my notes on playing Kayfabe.

There are a lot of things to keep in mind during a match - probably too many. They include:
- the number of moves
- the wrestling score
- move modifiers (e.g. Signature moves, Finishers)
- Heat wagering
- Shooting
- Stretching
- Risking injury
- Conditions (increases to Heat and Injury)
- Work rate modifications
- and if I'm not mistaken (I might be) yet another form of injury (but maybe I just counted the Risking twice)

I suggest scrubbing this stuff just a tad, not enough to remove all the neat stuff (fire cages! injury! working the crowd!) but to keep from shiftin' all over the rulebook to deal with tons of points of different sorts, for every step. It seems to me that the real concerns are:
1) What bloody happens (this is the Work Rate thing mainly)
2) Injury
3) Heat

If all these different things could use the same basic units - say, eliminate the Injury rolls and have all Injury increases be by 2, no matter what - then running a match would just as much fun and a lot, lot easier.

(The above Injury notion is an off-the-cuff suggestion; I don't suggest taking it literally.)

Best,
Ron