The Forge Archives

Hi there,

I was looking through the Fantasy Heartbreaker games again, comparing various features of Deathstalkers. Deathstalkers has been released this year in hardback form (called "second edition" by the author) and it's a classic Heartbreaker. Based on my reading, its strengths lie mainly in an elaborate but definitely dynamic combat system and a lot of extremely overt Gamist design features (I find open Gamist design to be refreshing and honest).

This post is about something much more specific, though. Deathstalkers includes a character race called the Half-dead, kind of wasted, scary-looking dudes. I then realized that Darkurthe: Legends (1994) includes its Druine, and Forge: Out of Chaos (1998) includes its Dunnar. They're all pretty much the same thing - physically frail, scary-evil in appearance, some undead qualities, but all qualified by "not really being undead" and "not such bad folks as people think."

The scholar in me is twitching his nostrils. Where does this come from?

Option #1: coincidence. Undead are wasted and scary, some players like to play wasted and scary characters, so here's a character race for them. Maybe all three games just independently derived'em from the same in-play demand. Option #2: non-fantasy game influence. With Vampire and so forth out there, and the burgeoning of horror-nasty content in role-playing games through the mid-90s, it's only what you'd expect in terms of features showing up in any and every game, not just these. Option #3: official or unofficial D&D content. All the Heartbreakers represent reactions to and refinements of D&D in one form or another, often in a kind of love/hate, homage/rebellion combination.

I suspect #3, partly because the three races across the three games are so similar, partly because influences from other RPGs are so scant in Heartbreakers. However, I don't immediately see the direct influence from old (pre-2nd edition) D&D, which is what I'm most familiar with. Paul Czege reminded me of the Revenant in the Fiend Folio, which seems to match slightly (despite being really undead). People might want to play a slightly more sympathetic version of the Revenant as written, and it might enter into the same unofficial but widespread status as the Evil Paladin. That still seems to be reaching a bit though.

For those of you who were more attuned to D&D culture than I was in the late 80s, was there such an unofficial race/class as the Kinda Undead Guy, roaming through the games? (Again, think Evil Paladin, or Drow, or Dragon in Human Form, or any of the other non-canonical but "standard in play" types.) Or, alternately, was there a specific race or type of character that showed up in a supplement or canonical setting that would have taken hold?

Best,
Ron

Undead characters didn't become vogue among the people I gamed with until Ravenloft was released, which was deep into 2E territory.  But hell, 2E was released when I was still in high school, when pretty much the only people I gamed with were a couple cousins of mine, so my experience is admittedly limited.

I'm kind of inclined to believe that as "dark" fantasy became more popular, so did these sorts of characters.  Dark fantasy is practically defined by its proliferation of undead and ghoulish monster types, so undead PCs makes sense (sort of).  Darkurthe Legends I have, and it definitely aims for that niche, and Deathstalkers bills itself as a horror-fantasy rpg.   So it might just be the designers' attempt to be "dark" and "grim".

Deathstalkers was heavily influenced by Rolemaster and Warhammer.  Warhammer doesn't allow for undead PCs (IIRC), but I'll bet Rolemaster did (can't verify, since my old Rolemaster books were given away long, long ago).   My point is, maybe games from the early 80's other than D&D are having a substantial impact on the Fantasy Heartbreakers of today.

Take care,
Scott

Hi Scott,

I buy all your points about the timing and intent of the trend. What I'm after is a smoking gun - the first appearance of a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, probably all tormented and dangerous, in a D&D or (as you point out) almost-D&D context.

You may be overestimating the comparative efforts of Fantasy Heartbreaker authors. Based on the games I've cited, there is no evidence that they even looked at non-D&D games. They routinely tout "innovations" that reach well back into the early 80s or late 70s, for example. But OK, I accept that it's a possibility. Still, these Almost-Dead Pale characters aren't in Warhammer, nor in Rolemaster, at least not in the main books.

The Ravenloft reference sounds promising, though. Jesse, you know that setting pretty well, right? Does anything there seem likely to have spawned this "character race" in the Heartbreakers?

Best,
Ron

I always though of these "character races" as designed for those munchkins who insist on playing Elric (i.e. just about all of them). One cannot actually play Elric in these systems or in D&D without massive deprotagonization or massive overriding of system constraints or both, but that never stopped people from trying. Design an Elric who fits into the constraints of the game system, and you get... a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, and probably all tormented and dangerous.

Just a theory, though, and it may not truly explain the convergence, especially the semi-undead part (though Elric does fit that description, with only a slight stretch). Did one of those D&D-based novel series that I'd rather pull my own instestines out with a fork than read have a character like this who may have served as the missing link?

- Walt

I'm pretty knowledgable on all that 80's D&D stuff, and I don't remember a race like this. (Actually, the only character type like this I can think of is the Harrowed from Deadlands. [Edit: there was a race like this in GURPS Fantasy Folk.])

Still, I think the reason you see it so often is because it's a compelling archetype: the misunderstood monster. The race is a near-match for Frankenstein's monster.

Is it me, or does this sound like Gollum from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

I know it sounds very similar to The Lost, a concept I had for Orkworld. I think I even posted a badly-written piece of fiction about that on the old Orkworld board. It was later that I realised how similar the Lost was to Gollum. I haven't read the games in question. Is there any similarities?

Not a race as such, but Raistlen from Dragon Lance?

Who slowly became paler, more tortured and closer to being undead than alive over the course of a trilogy?

He was also part of a sect of Magicians who, quite literally, wear their alignment on their sleeves.

--Simon

My view is it might be a more general influence. There seems to be a continual flow from non-player -> player. I think this might be evidence of that trend.

I believe this comes from a sort of fasination with evil and the fact that a member of a traditional 'enemy' that is good has alot of good story potential in it. This is partly  rise-fall-redeption stories, like starwars are popular.
Although you can also have 'exiled', seperated or somehow different members of the 'enemy'. Star Trek has Worf and Odo.  Also you can have characthers who are not unambiguiosuly 'good' but enough that it makes them interesting. (To cont. the Star Trek example, Garrik).

Also of course, there is just the thrill of being a race that was 'forbidden' before. Also, evil races are usually percieved as 'better' in some way, so there is probably a bit of gamism there. This is generally born out in literature also. Drizzt kicks butt.
   This seems to happen to just about anything. Vampires were orignally evil night monsters, but are now there is Vampire the RPG. Most efforts like this turn the group from 'enemy' to 'really complex people who arn't necessaraly evil'. Dragons are another example. We have the spectrum from monstors->Pern. Note that this usally happens to 'intelligent' enemies, enemys players can respect.
Even DnD now has half-orks.
 
  DnD I think is somewhat resistant to this due to the fact that having, say playable vampires would involve facing how silly alignment actually is. ( I think there is a small section about this in the Monstor Manuel though, it mostly deals with balance though and assumes you'll 'make up some extrodianry story to explain the aligment thing')

I admit that my game experiance covers quite a bit less than most people here. In terms of Ron's options, I suppose this comes out as a vote for #2.

Elric? I could always use novel suggesions. What is this?

Hello,

Damion, you might be right - any of the three options might be the right one - but I'm sufficiently convinced of the derivative nature of the Heartbreakers, as a group, that "a feeling" based argument isn't very strong.

Jack, the Gollum reference has some similarities, but it doesn't match in a way that accounts for the similarities in these characters across the specific RPG designs. I'm also pretty convinced that few, if any, of the Heartbreaker authors actually read much fantasy aside from RPG-related publications.

Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHello,


Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Best,
Ron

I was just trying to say that the Heartbreaker authors may have just thought  undead from DnD  were cool and wanted a playable version that wasn't unredeamably evil. Clinton's 'misunderstood monster archetype'. I think there's also a 'monstor as good guy' archetype, frex Pern.  
Basicly, the monstor is cool, so I want to be the monstor, but I don't want to be as evil as the monstor. I think I hit a trend in gaming, but it may not be what we're looking for here.

Raistlen was the anti-hero of the Dragonlance Chronicals(Weis & Hickman).
He was pretty much just pale and weak. The idea being that he sacrificed his health for power in some sort of blood-oath thing.  He was sort of a fan-fave with geeks due to being weak, but at the same time immensly powerful. He was also incredibly self serving, with a few exceptions. Kinda a geek revenge fantasy. There unrequited love, sacrafice, the whole deal. A charachter modivated by power who redeems themself, ect.
      Honestly,  I don't think he's what your looking for. Dragonlance was a series that was probalby inspired by DnD, at least partly, but  I don't think it was made into a published setting until after the books. However, it is better than most other fiction that was inspired by RPGs, IMHO.

Edit:Well, it appears JB and amiel got there also with the Raistlen thing. We all seem to have hit different aspects,so I'll leave it.

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Raistlin is one of the major characters of the multi-volume Dragonlance series by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.  He didn't start the "tortured magus" stereotype (I guess that honor goes to Elric?), but his internal torment was written to the very depths of drama.  I must admit the memory is a fond one, given I was a fairly tormented early-20s guy when I read it (angst settled a bit late on my weary, world-worn shoulders, like a cloak of the purest black--uh, sorry).  Probably I'd gag if I read the novels today.

Anyway, Raistlin's torment is less, hmmm, Nordic--Fate isn't out to get him like Elric, it's more a "descent into hell via expedient means" in the vein of Faust.  He resonated with a lot of young gamers at the time, and I'd say the majority of "tormented magus" PCs from that era bear his stamp.  Though I had such a character before ever reading those books, and I think before they were even published.  So there must be other cultural or literary influences too; I wouldn't rule out science fiction, either.  I think there may be a missing link from Faust to Elric.

As for his similarities with the PC race under discussion, he was, I think, already a half-elf (correct me on this if I'm off base), so nice and wan, and depicted as in fact a bit greenish, not to mention he had hourglass-shaped pupils for that extra-creepy effect.

The earliest precedent that comes to mind for me is probably easily discounted, since it was a rather dull novelty race from the Tunnels & Trolls supplement, Monsters! Monsters!.  They had "skeletons" that were just regular humans but with transparent everything-except-bones.

--JB

Edit:  Damion posted at the same time as I did, oops.  His characterization is better overall; I'll only add that I'm pretty sure the progression was that Weis & Hickman played/GMed in their own setting, then published some successful fiction based on it, then it became a published setting.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsWho is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Raistlin is a character from the "Dragonlance" books. He's the evil twin of Caramon (a well meaning but bumbling fighter type). In the first novels he's part of the "Red Robed" (neutral) of mages. Later he converts to the "Black Robed" (evil) mages. There is a curse of a sort. As part of the leftovers from his "trials" to become a mage he is frail and has hourglass pupils that force him to watch people die and things decay. Raistlin later becomes a dark god then sacrafices everything to save the universe. Also, he's abusive to Caramon.
Did I miss anything?

[Reading back I should have mentioned I'm thinking in terms of option 3.]

Damion: From my perspective (26 years old, living in NZ) Dragonlance squats on the landscape here much like Star Wars, Red Dwarf or Doctor Who. I've only read the first trilogy (I was about 11 or so) and most people my age I know in gaming have read at least that.

Perhaps I'm thinking too locally, but after reading Ron's initial post, Raistlen was the first thing that leapt into my head that may have had the sort of impact that'd drive people to homage him in a RPG.

Amiel: I'd forgotten about the hourglass eyes. They creeped me out a bit, they did.

--Simon

H'm,

Raistlin (?) (spelling varies on this thread) seems to be the right guy. Damion, I hear ya, but trust me on the history-of-gaming + history-of-fiction connection. I think this guy is the smoking gun.

Elric does not fit the bill. To clarify for everyone, Elric is a significant fantasy-fiction hero whose stories first appeared in the late 1960s, written by Michael Moorcock. He was an extremely influential character, being physically weak, something of a drug addict, and bonded to an exceptionally perverse demonic sword named Stormbringer. There was a lot of the early David Bowie in Elric, or at least the glam thing in general.

However, Elric was not wasted and undead-looking; he was kind of pretty actually. He doesn't match the profile I'm looking for.

Raistlin sounds like an Elric ripoff to a certain extent. However, the various races in the Heartbreakers conform to his specific (non-Elric) physical and story-ish features very well. His presence in the D&D fiction, and I consider the Dragonlance books to be D&D fiction, lock, stock, and barrel, was more likely on the radar screens of the authors in question than Elric was.

Thanks to everyone for their help and input!

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron,

Personally, I'm not sure Raistlin is your smoking gun. I admit, the Dragonlance novels are just the kind of lake to be dragging for the hidden inspirations of curious elements found in fantasy heartbreakers, so I guess he's a candidate. But his physical weakness, coughing, supported by his tirelessly loyal brother, fueled in evil by his ambition, just doesn't connect with undeadness as a concept for me.

However, Blizzard just released WarCraft III with a playable undead race. It seems to me that fantasy video games are another lake that might be hiding your smoking gun, and that the undead in WarCraft III could be a descendent of a common ancestor held with the Druine and Dunnar.

Paul