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Code Name: Pleroma

A Peek Behind the Veil of (Potential) Game Design


Software programmers sometimes give their projects "code names" so I thought, sure, why not.  Thus "Code Name: Pleroma".  Sounds almost like some hard-boiled pulp action title.  So what is this thing with the funny name?

Recently I posted to the thread about the game in progress being worked on here at The Forge tentatively titled "Enlightenment the RPG".  Reading those posts the inspiration bug bit and I conceived a *potential* concept of design for a game system, in outline at least.   Not wanting to step upon the toes of those fine people working on that system I have decided to post my initial notations here in the hopes that others may benefit from them.  Comments are welcome as are ideas for how what has been implemented here may be of benefit to the work being done on that project, or expanded upon and developed in its own right, of course the latter would likely be up to you.

Conversely if you feel the system design lacks merit then I would like to know that, too, and what you think doesn't work as outlined.

What follows here is based marginally upon the post(s) which I made to that forum.  It could be said that the system has been constructed from the ground up based upon a melding of various philosophical, mystical, and religious ideas.  But in reality I just borrowed freely (and perhaps heavy handedly) the terminology.

A note about these rules as they stand:  My basic design philosophy is that a game's *feel* it's *setting* should evolve organically from its rules.  I tried to reflect this in preparing these rule for posting.  When done right rules should meld into the background and become part of game play.  Not an easy goal to achieve.   Too, this is often reached only after investing time learning a game system.  Which is how I think a game should be approached.  Any game-- be it chess, poker, basketball, or a role-playing game-- has to be learned during play and its subtleties revealed over time.

Alas this is a luxury role-playing games often can't afford.  The systems are too intricate and their backgrounds, if not interesting, become distractions.  Which is perhaps why the best FRP games are the ones which are easy to learn, yet leave room to *evolve* over time as the players learn the strategies and foibles of the system.  Therefore, when reading what is outlined herein, keep in mind that setting and system was intended to go hand in hand.


{{Design Comment/Note of Introduction}}

Only have what is below here so far.  At present it's just a "note to self" and thus needs to be rewritten.  The system is for a world in which mystics, monks, cabalists, and fraternal organizations play a primary role.  There is no background presented, only thumbnails of rule mechanics.

#
Since we are dealing with a game that deals with mysticism and philosophy there should only be three (3) primary Stats, no more and no less.  One thing to keep in mind, whatever they are to be called, is that they should represent Body, Mind, and Soul respectively.  The numerical range for these Traits is from 0-7, the reasoning behind these numerical values is directly related to the premise and setting of the game world.  (Of course Traits can just as easily be rolled on 2D10, D8, 3D4, etcetera and this 0-7 scale transferred to the Syzygies and used as a the basis for conflict resolution system, of sorts.  But should it?)
#

It should be noted that I amended the above Stats from: "Gnosis, Willpower, and Psyche" as presented in the original posting.  The Traits outlined above are defined within the structure of this system as follows:


{{Character Traits}}

Nous (Mind) - This is a characters facility for reasoning and perception in relation to material reality; in game terms this is a measure of Intellect.  Should this score become depleted the player character literally "losses touch" with reality.

Gnosis (Knowledge) - A measure of both worldly knowledge and spiritual discernment, by extension a mean measure of mystical learning; in game terms this functions more as Willpower and applied Understanding than it does a statistical measure of Intellect.

Psyche (Soul) - That supernal shadow which is the essence of mortal being, in game terms a abstract measure of the "vital principle"; when (Body is) depleted a player character (retaining Psyche) literally becomes a Shade (Ghost).

#
At this point I still have "Nous" and "Gnosis" in my notes but am thinking of retaining only one.  As stated the desired end result is to have 3 Traits representing Body, Mind, and Spirit.  I changed the terminology to all Greek terms.  Of course "Body, Mind, and Spirit" are perfectly fine attribute labels.  Then again there is no reason  why one couldn't simply alter the premise and have four stats.
#


{{Character Generation}}

Syzygies

Syzygies are "Pairs" of opposites.  A few examples are left and right, purity and impurity, light and darkness.  They represent more than the sum of those aspects in opposition to one another.  Syzygies are what form the universe, or rather what is seen to manifest as the universe within the material realm.

In relation to the player characters Syzygies are experienced, in game terms, as obstacles upon the path to Enlightenment.  Obstacles which are expressed as "aim for: Courage, must fight against: Fear" or "seek to do: positive, must fight against: negative".  Syzygies are accordingly a very active part of the game process, at least where actions of the player characters are concerned.

#
Sometimes you just stumble on the right term at the right time.  I was lucky here.

However the concept is to have the Syzygies chosen by the player for their character in order to "flesh out" character Traits by applying +/- modifiers to (hopefully) generate starting scores ranging from 1-6.  As envisioned the Traits would be variable, much like Health or Hit Points in any standard FRP game.  Still debating whether or not a die mechanic is needed.
#


{{Miscellaneous Notes on Possible Character Stats}}

At present my notes state, "There should only be twelve (12) Syzygies."  With each Syzygy requiring the PC to achieve "full Rank" mastery before they can be proclaimed as "Enlightened", or rather gain "one more rung" closer to their goal.  (Sort of like how you try to move your piece up the board in Snakes & Ladders to reach Nirvana.)

My original posted notes also state that: Those wishing to delve into the darker side of things can institute an mechanic for the "Three Entered into Pardes but only One came out whole" effect on the Psyche.  But I would leave that up to group vote/decision as to whether such a negative aspect of the game should even be addressed.  Something to keep in mind if you want to work on a game using a setting such as this one.


{{The remainder of my notes}}

* There should be nine (9) Character Archetypes.

#
Alternatively the number of Syzygies and Character Archetypes could be reversed.  Then again they could also be arranged in Ogdoads, but is this advisable/practical to implement?  I don't think so.  (And who knows what a Ogdoad is anyway?)
#

Some sample Archetypes might be: Mystic, Cabalist, Monk, Occultist, Spiritualist, Medium, Prophet, &tc.  Really depends on what sort of period background gets applied to these rules.

Also might mastery over certain Syzygies give a player "insights" into arcane knowledge?  At present the rules are attempting to recreate the *feel* of a mystical environment.  Thus there is no *magic system* presented.  But is there enough room for one to be appended if wanted?


* There should be 13 Ranks/Levels of advancement.

#
Should there?  Nine or seven sounds more manageable.
#


{{section on "Perfect vs. Imperfect Understanding" deleted to save space}}


{{Resources for those who may wish to save this post to file}}

Links (Off site)

Crystalinks Metaphysical and Science Page  (an eclectic assortment of information)

Internet Sacred Text Archive  (great one stop reference site)

John Kim's Free RPG's on the Web  (excellent site for links to RPG related material)

Myths & Legends

Religious and Sacred Texts  (great one stop reference site)


{{}}

Not much to look at in its present state, but there it is.  Hope what I posted is of use to someone.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Err, what are you supposed to do in the game? Enlighten people? Yourself? Start religious wars?

Greetings Pale Fire,

Let me just start off by saying I hope you, and everyone else reading these words, had a great Halloween!  Where ever you may have been, however you may have celebrated the day.

Quote from: Pale FireErr, what are you supposed to do in the game? Enlighten people? Yourself? Start religious wars?

Short and succinct!

I'll be brief.

1) This is merely mechanics, not a full fledged system.

2) What I have presented is an "idea" of a "template" for a potential game/mechanic.

3) The "premise" or "goal" of the game will be dependant upon setting.

In short, with what is presented in "Code Name: Pleroma" I would like to achieve a "feel" of the Mystical world environment.  Obviously I trimmed what I posted a bit, but that is the bulk of my notes.


Need to know more?


[nodoze]
Ok, for those lurkers who may be interested, I shall expand upon the above.

1) What is outlined is based upon several principles of design, first and foremost amongst these is that "setting" to be properly "immersive" should grow out of the rules organically.  This means the underlying rules system has to be tied into the game environment, thus the use of certain numerical associations.

2) As presented this is but the seed kernal of an system, one which has potential for further development, but only if there is obvious and apparent interest in the basic principles outlined.

3) Same as above.  Whether modern or medieval, the rules are intended purely to create an *mystical environment* wherein Cabalists, Mediums, Prophets, etcetera can be played.


But how to know, on a basic level, whether or not something like "Code Name: Pleroma" is a game worth working on?

Simple.  If your eyes glazed over while reading it this is a good indication the presentation may not suit you.  But ask yourself what you think of the premise, if your eyes still glaze over it may not be for you.

That's really why I posted it.  Whether or not you like the template system as presented if the premise sounds interesting, well, there is (as I mentioned) that "Enlightenment" Thread to go look at for another perspective.  Of course feedback on this system would also be nice.  

edit:  No rush, there's lots to read in these Forums.  But let me thank you all in advance for reading this far and posting your responses.
[/nodoze]


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Ok, Chris. If it's not really a game but idea for a way to make a game, maybe this should go to in RPG Theory instead, chances are that you'll get a more appropriate discussion there. You could ask Ron or Clinton to more the posting for you if that's the case.

But...

Quote3) Same as above. Whether modern or medieval, the rules are intended purely to create an *mystical environment* wherein Cabalists, Mediums, Prophets, etcetera can be played.

Even this does not really define what you intentions are. "What is a mystical environment" is a question that immediately springs to mind.

I'm not asking you to be mean but to try to help you get a better defininition perhaps. Cabalists, mediums and prophets could be played in KULT with a strong leaning towards Clive Barker type of horror. Or you could have quite a different experience with one of those "all christian RPGs" (snicker) where it's okay to run around killing non-cristians and infidels because they are of the devil (there actually are those kinds of games!). There are a lot more examples, and I think they all deserve their own treatment rather than a single worldsetting where they are "possible".

Maybe this illustrates how vague the idea sounds to the rest of us? For better or worse you need a premise or need to work out a premise. What can you do? What CAN'T be done? (it's important to have those things too) What's supposed to be fun playing such a game? And so on.

[Ooo, now I got all excited about doing a Clive Barker inspired game at the time of the late crusades. Mediums, cabalists, mystics, christians, devil worshippers, muslems, djinns. Arabian Nights meets the Crusades crossbred with Clive Barker, all while trying to seem "historical"]

Greetings Chris,

You do realise we are going to confuse the heck out of everyone by using our first names?  Ok, so long as you are aware, Chris, let's debug!

Quote from: Pale FireOk, Chris. If it's not really a game but idea for a way to make a game, maybe this should go to in RPG Theory instead, chances are that you'll get a more appropriate discussion there. You could ask Ron or Clinton to more the posting for you if that's the case.

Well, as I understand it, Theory is for pure ideas without actual mechanics, or rather *discussion* of game concepts.  As presented this is mostly mechanics.  But mechanics which, when watered, grow into setting and premise.

Here goes...

Quote from: Pale Fire

Quote3) Same as above. Whether modern or medieval, the rules are intended purely to create an *mystical environment* wherein Cabalists, Mediums, Prophets, etcetera can be played.

Even this does not really define what you intentions are. "What is a mystical environment" is a question that immediately springs to mind.

I would expand but to do so would require delving into matters of Mysticism, Philosophy, and Religion.  Touchy subjects for many of us here I am sure.

But, since you ask, the game as presented has applied certain numerical values.  For instance my premise, as outlined, states I want to keep the number of stats to thre (3), this is because the number three, when broken down (and grossly oversimplified) represents: Body, Mind, Soul.  There is no reason one could not alter the premise, as I mentioned, to four stats.

To do so *might* (or rather *could*) require re-aligning the numerical values to a "Cabalistic" modal reality.  I tried to keep it generic.

BUT, if we did alter the premise so it was associated with such numerical values the values *might* now shift to: 4, 10, 22...  etcetera.  It all depends on how one wants to put the game together.  Which, I suppose, is what I am wondering about.

Again, I'd prefer to keep it as generic as possible.  (Which isn't easy.)

Quote from: Pale FireI'm not asking you to be mean but to try to help you get a better defininition perhaps. Cabalists, mediums and prophets could be played in KULT with a strong leaning towards Clive Barker type of horror. Or you could have quite a different experience with one of those "all christian RPGs" (snicker) where it's okay to run around killing non-cristians and infidels because they are of the devil (there actually are those kinds of games!). There are a lot more examples, and I think they all deserve their own treatment rather than a single worldsetting where they are "possible".

Not what this is trying to achieve.  It is, in short, an attempt to develop an "mystical feel", meaning using associations inimical to Mysticsm, Philosophy et al to develop the underlying system.  Call it a "simulation" of an environment if you like.  Might help, might hinder.

Quote from: Pale FireMaybe this illustrates how vague the idea sounds to the rest of us? For better or worse you need a premise or need to work out a premise. What can you do? What CAN'T be done? (it's important to have those things too) What's supposed to be fun playing such a game? And so on.

Well the goal would be to design a system that can be applied to ANY Genre Label, be it horror or a modern espionage giallo type thriller.

Quote from: Pale Fire[Ooo, now I got all excited about doing a Clive Barker inspired game at the time of the late crusades. Mediums, cabalists, mystics, christians, devil worshippers, muslems, djinns. Arabian Nights meets the Crusades crossbred with Clive Barker, all while trying to seem "historical"]

Go to it!  It always helps to try tackling something new every once in a while.  Cleanses the palate and clears the mind of all that extraneous dross which fogs our view.

About the name thing. You realize we also have Bankuei as "Chris" as well as Peregrine (another "Chris") and finally Chris Edwards. That would be 5 active posters that I'm aware of right now (including us two)

QuoteWell, as I understand it, Theory is for pure ideas without actual mechanics, or rather *discussion* of game concepts.  As presented this is mostly mechanics.  But mechanics which, when watered, grow into setting and premise.

Actual quote is:

Quotebut you should have a clear coherent idea of what your game is about and where you want to go with it. If you cannot answer the question, "What is my game about?" do not start a thread.

As long you as that is adhered to I guess it's fine.

QuoteI would expand but to do so would require delving into matters of Mysticism, Philosophy, and Religion.  Touchy subjects for many of us here I am sure.

I still don't see where you wanna go with this. Help! :)

QuoteIt is, in short, an attempt to develop an "mystical feel", meaning using associations inimical to Mysticsm, Philosophy et al to develop the underlying system.  Call it a "simulation" of an environment if you like.  Might help, might hinder.

Ok, what about this then: Give me an adventure and a few lines from play (no need to introduce mechanics) which gives the geist of how it would be special.

Quote

Quote from: Pale Fire[Ooo, now I got all excited about doing a Clive Barker inspired game at the time of the late crusades. Mediums, cabalists, mystics, christians, devil worshippers, muslems, djinns. Arabian Nights meets the Crusades crossbred with Clive Barker, all while trying to seem "historical"]

Go to it!  It always helps to try tackling something new every once in a while.  Cleanses the palate and clears the mind of all that extraneous dross which fogs our view.

Too much work though, I should be working with Ygg... But maybe if I tested out some of the ideas for Ygg in it... Well I'll think about it.

Edit: Changed a quote-attribution that was wrong and updated it because I forgot to include Chris Edwars among the may Chris'. :)

Quote from: Pale FireAbout the name thing. You realize we also have Bankuei as "Chris" as well as Peregrine (another "Chris") and finally Chris Edwards. That would be 5 active posters that I'm aware of right now (including us two)

Really?

Well, now that I think about it, of course there would have to be Chris' here.  Chris's are all destined for greatness, but then you knew that already.   (BES)  After all it was a "Chris" who discovered America!  A "Chris" who... (the casual readers, mercifully, are spared what could have been a pages long rant)...

BES = Big Evil Smirk

Quote from: Pale Fire

QuoteI would expand but to do so would require delving into matters of Mysticism, Philosophy, and Religion.  Touchy subjects for many of us here I am sure.

I still don't see where you wanna go with this. Help! :)

I suppose it is a bit difficult to follow without all the notes.  Ok, here's the second best thing, check out this thread[/color] at RPGnet for my early write up of "Perfect vs. Imperfect" Knowledge.  Granted it's not much to look at but it as I am currently working on something which will illustrate that mechanic it may be helpful.

Which is what I am trying to work out here.  Mechanics with a *feel* of the mystical, but which are usable.

Quote from: Pale FireOk, what about this then: Give me an adventure and a few lines from play (no need to introduce mechanics) which gives the geist of how it would be special.

I'm working on it.  Will only be one aspect of the system though.  However I'd like each mechanic to be modular in the sense that you can "plug and play" with which ever ones you want.

If that makes sense?

Expect to see the rough draft of "Devils and Demons" posted here soon.

(Just need to do a write up for Paranoia.)


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Sounds interesting, I would buy it. peace

Greetings GMplayer,

Welcome aboard.

Quote from: GMplayerSounds interesting, I would buy it. peace

That's heartening, positive feedback is always a good thing.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Greetings All,

For those reading these words across the vast expanse of the cold cybervoid, viewed through quantum mirrors linking the vast gulf of the Spheres, or perhaps even singing in the shower while scrolling past posts on your retina implants in some future world where this Forum is part of the archaic Internet archives...

Welcome to the relative here and now.

In the meantime what do those of you who have read the Pleroma entry above think of the underlying premise?

How, if at all, would you like to see a concept like "Devils and Demons" woven into the basic mechanic structure outlined herein?

Was there anything which seemed unclear, vague, or just plain confusing you'd like to ask me about?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Kester

Hey, thought I chime in with some feedback for you:) Well, after reading over the thread, I would say that you primarily have at this time, a system that is more or less System as Color. I mean there is no major mechanical significance for having these particular numbers and associations and such. I do like the feel, with mysticism/occult stuff an occasional interest of mine (great place to steal terms for funky ideas.:) ).

Currently, the ideas you have presented primarily seem a way to inject color into a mechanics base. That is, the mechanics themselves don't seem to drive towards anything yet. Perhaps if you expanded on how the Syzgzies are used I would understand better. On the one hand, I am reminded of In Nomine's D666, primarily color injected into a mechanic.

So, I guess I like what have you so far, but I am not seeing the implications or beauty of it. Perhaps showing how they would be used relative to a character or a game situation. What makes the Szygiges cool to use, IYO?

HTH

Greetings RobMuadib,

It's funny, coming to check up on a thread, only to discover your post you thought you made, you hadn't, but instead left it sitting on the HD.

Well, maybe not all that funny...

Quote from: RobMuadibHey, thought I chime in with some feedback for you:) Well, after reading over the thread, I would say that you primarily have at this time, a system that is more or less System as Color. I mean there is no major mechanical significance for having these particular numbers and associations and such. I do like the feel, with mysticism/occult stuff an occasional interest of mine (great place to steal terms for funky ideas.:) ).

As presented "Codename: Pleroma" has mechanics that are patterned after a specific sort of setting environment but only seem to have no other purpose, beyond "color".  Eventually they'd be linked to my concept of "Imperfect vs. Perfect" understanding.  (The section I deleted to save space.)  Maybe.

What?  You want to know more?  Alright.

To sum up the concept...

Ineffable is the look in a child's eyes when they gaze upon the world for the first time.

Inertia is what happens to adults when they reflect upon the wonderment a child shows at mundane things, and thus remember the child they once were.

"Imperfect vs. Perfect Understanding" is the mechanic to express the difference between the two.

But how to properly apply it?

To continue from the above, there would be two linked Traits.  We can take these straight out of the description as written, thus: "Ineffable" and "Inertia" are our new working Traits.  These are now new game stats which interplay/react with each other within the game environment in some specific fasion.

A basic example of this concept applied (attempted, at least) is my 'Devils and Demons' test game.  Key word "test".

Quote from: RobMuadibCurrently, the ideas you have presented primarily seem a way to inject color into a mechanics base. That is, the mechanics themselves don't seem to drive towards anything yet. Perhaps if you expanded on how the Syzgzies are used I would understand better. On the one hand, I am reminded of In Nomine's D666, primarily color injected into a mechanic.

So, I guess I like what have you so far, but I am not seeing the implications or beauty of it. Perhaps showing how they would be used relative to a character or a game situation. What makes the Szygiges cool to use, IYO?

You would have to ask about the Syzygies!

Originally I envisioned them as a finite 'set' of paired Traits, but I am not so sure about that.  Right now I am working on my "Imperfect vs. Perfect Understanding" model, and will probably utilize that in relation to the Syzygies as one possible meta-mechanic.

As for how the Syzygies would work here's an quick and dirty example: take your 7 Deadly Sins and your 7 Virtues, pair them.  You now have 7 pairs of linked Traits.  Within the context of the game there would have to be a mechanic for how they interact, probably tied into the very game premise itself.

I am exploring possible mechanics. The most accessible being 'Devils and Demons'.

Of course, as you say, there is at present little to the premise beyond the basic "color" and a bit of salty tang of possible setting which requires much fleshing out.  Then again "Codename: Pleroma" was just a basic, bare bones, sketch-outline.  Perhaps too bare-bones?  (Or maybe I overdosed on the color?)

Does anyone have any thoughts on how they'd like to see the system applied?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius