The Forge Archives

Inspired by a chat with Mearls over some spinach-feta puffs, I've been thinking of how to publish InSpectres.

He raised some excellent points about how PDF wasn't really meeting its full potential as a publishing format, because publishers are using it in the same manner they'd use print media...except it's electronic ratehr than physical.

So one idea I had was this:

Publish a "no-frills" edition of InSpectres as a PDF. No artwork or character sheet. Just a TOC, rules and an index (perhaps hyperlinked). Sales from this would go to me, natch.

Then, publish an InSpectres "art pak" containing the stuff that was left out. Artwork (which would preface each chapter), character sheets, fake "cards" for the card mechanic...that kinda thing. Sales of this would go directly to the artist.

The idea is that when someone prints out the rules, the artwork always eats a lot of printer ink, not to mention how much better it is for player hand-outs, etc. when that material is separate from the main body of rules.

And then, publish a free version with stripped-down rules (a page or two) and a nice image.

I suppose I could also sell a "package" version containing the whole damn thing.

What do y'all think of this?


_________________
jared a. sorensen / http://www.memento-mori.com
indie game design from beyond the grave

[ This Message was edited by: Jared A. Sorensen on 2001-12-27 19:32 ]

I kinda like it. It would seem to bypass the Endless Sterile Debate about what people buy games "for," art or text.

My only concern is that a great deal of the pleasure of art is not only in the image, but in the design and integration of art with the text. If the "art pack" basically just gave me full-page inserts to include among the text, it's not quite as ... well, cool as having designed text + art + layout that itself has an aesthetic value.

Yet I hesitate to suggest yet another version among the diversity you describe. So I don't know. Others' views would be much appreciated.

Best,
Ron

I rather like it. I agree that part of the fun is the layout, art included. But lately, I've been very attracted to "no frills" design. So...sounds good to me.

I've been wrestling with PDF design and presentation, so this thread is very intersting to me. I've been commissioned to design (as in graphic design) a PDF-format RPG, and while working through the design I've hit upon a number of issues.

For example, this work requires me to treat each page individually rather than as a facing pages layout, like I'm used to. Also, for the obvious reason that it will be printed out, it requires economical use of GRAYSCALE art. The imagery on a page can really add up quickly in terms of memory.

As the game's graphic designer, I'd obviously prefer a PDF that incorporates at least some graphically pleasing elemetns. However, I see where having a strictly text (well designed, of course!) version might be very attractive and useful for people.

Jared -- I'd really be interested to hear more about what you and Mearls talked about. I'm especially curious to find out more specifically about Mike's comment that its potential hasn't been met.

Any details from either of you guys?

I'd also love to hear any information or techniques from other folks who've created PDFs. How are folks saving memory? Any other design suggestions?

My take is this:

If you can't envision InSpectres without artwork, then artwork must be included in the game, hands down.

If the artwork is more-or-less an add-on to enhance the feel, then leaving it out wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Half the work I've been doing on my games lately has been drawing. These are games in which the look is vital to implying the mood or the style of play intended.

I'd say its going to boil down to how important the graphical element is to your vision of the game. Personally, I wouldn't fudge on anything if it meant something to me.

This is slightly OT but I was wondering if you are intending to publish just PDF or will go to print when you are ready (whatever the criteria for that is)? The reason I ask is that I have been warned away from PDF as a PRINCIPLE means of selling an RPG.

I have seen no hard numbers but the person I talked to (who has quite a bit of experience as an independent publisher) claimed that anyone with a good product (good as in consistent with a normal bell curve of quality) would only sell about 10% of the ammount of units they could if they published. The reason he cited to back this up (beyond experience) was that gamers tend to be impulse shoppers and will often buy things they see in the gamestore because they look interesting or even just for something to read.  

OTOH, if you aren't out a lot of money now, selling PDFs might be a good way to come up with some publishing money. Moreover, I guess if you only sell a handful of copies (and have effectively used the many free internat advertizing resources that are available) that might be a reason not to publish. :wink:

Just curious

Ryan

Matt,
I'll let Mike talk about the whole PDF thing as it would be second-hand info coming from me.

James,
The whole reason to do it this way is because the game doesn't require any artwork at all to get the point across. You hunt ghosts and monsters for money. Period. That's the game. But yeah, if I was going to do some other game that was visual then I'd totally go for as much art as possible. The art-pak would still be more than a few pretty pictures (and the guy I want to draw for me has a great style), they're just not necessary to play the game (the way Ars Mechanica NEEDS big glorious pictures of giant robots looking cool).

Ryan,
Don't get me wrong, a print version of the game would be lovely, but I don't have a job right now and am relying on my savings and checking accounts. So PDF is amazingly attractive. Overhad costs are low (no printers fees, no warehousing fees, direct sales) and customer base is low. Considering how few people can actually live off of RPG design, it just makes more sense to go for the low risk, "low yield" option. And it's better than being another free game because there seems to be more respectibility (it seems that more people will buy a bad game than read a good free game).

That and I've done the "free game" trip about two-dozen times.

Frankly, I never require art for a game. Once I get the premise in my head, I'm off and running. So I like the idea a lot.

How about one version with art, and another cheaper one without. That fixes Ron's problem.

Mike

Sure I understand. I was just curious about you game plan on the business side if you had one.

Thanks
Ryan

As a related note, White Wolf has now released two products as PDF "ebooks" with no hard copies available.  I haven't heard about the numbers, but I was given a complimentary copy of the first one and I think we'll be seeing them doing more in the future.  With both WotC and WW putting out more and more material in PDF form themselves, I think we'll continue to see the market expand.  

For Devils Cay, I'll probably be giving the PDF away free for Skotos subscribers (free first month, $9.95/mo after).  The softcover version I'm doing is only intended to supplement subscriber fees and attract new subscribers and after looking it it, I've decided its personally worth the investment.  But I'm getting more receptive to pure PDF publishing in general, and I think consumers are as well.

[ This Message was edited by: Laurel on 2001-12-30 14:58 ]

I agree Laurel. The longterm trend is likely to move toward a larger percentage of the market consisting of PDF base sales. The economics for the Manufacturer and End User are just to good. However, I don't think it will leads to a seachange in the way gamers shop until someone makes affordable handheld devices capable of making the matereial viewable away from the desktop and to a lesser degree laptop. Especially, if utilities specific to the game could be included to help GMs run them.

OTOH, if you are just doing a niche game its still a great option and more highly frequented central hub websites (like EN World) that can get the word out about PDF offerings for free will greatly improve the profitablity for PDF Publishers. Unfortunately, no one is really doing a major indie-only hype site. One might say Forge is one but I'm referring to a more consumer-centric news/reviews/push model. :wink:

Later

Ryan

Point of order:

I don't want "consumers" to buy my games. If they do, fine. But really...this is like business school buzzword bingo.

*** does the "It's just a weird hobby" dance ***

- J

Sorry


Ryan

Quote
On 2001-12-28 00:54, Ryan Ary wrote:

I have seen no hard numbers but the person I talked to (who has quite a bit of experience as an independent publisher) claimed that anyone with a good product (good as in consistent with a normal bell curve of quality) would only sell about 10% of the ammount of units they could if they published. The reason he cited to back this up (beyond experience) was that gamers tend to be impulse shoppers and will often buy things they see in the gamestore because they look interesting or even just for something to read.  

But distributors aren't impulse shoppers and neither are the gamestore owners.  If they don't bite there's no chance for the gamers to make impulse buys.  It's the nature of the chain.

And your profit per unit on .pdf is substantially higher than what you get from a retail sale, since you're not paying the middle men. You need to sell way fewer units in order to break even.

Paul