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Hi,

I've had an idea floating around in my head for a while now and I thought I'd post it here and see if anyone has anything useful to say.  The title is a friendly jibe at the other thread which which seems to be doing roughly the opposite of what I am - not something I intend to use.

One of the motivations here is to avoid a Humanity definition which can in any way boil down to common morality.  I think I've suceeded.

My main difficulty is figuring out how demons will work in this setting.  I think I've got the right idea for it, just need to get it fully sorted.   Any opinions grafefully accepted.

Sorcerer Pirates

"...it is safer to beg than to take, but it is a finer thing to take than to beg.  No:  a poor man who is ungrateful, unthrifty, discontented, and rebellious, is probably a real personality, and has much in him.  He is at any rate a healthy protest.  As for the virtuous poor, one can pity them, of course, but one cannot possibly admire them.  They have made private terms with the enemy, and sold their birthright for very bad potttage."
   --- Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism.


This sorcerer setting is based on sources which portray a romantic vision of piracy.  The particular inspiration is Pirates of the Carribean,  but I don't think I'll be able to resist drawing from Monkey Island as the other source of priate-y fun that I've been exposed to.  Oh yeah, and The Princess Bride.

Premise

Personal freedom.  The existance of society relies upon the imposition of rules upon others.  Regardless of who sets these rules this means that freedom is limited by living within society.  Piracy in this setting is an expression of that freedom - a refusal to live by somebody elses rules.  To phrase as a question, to what extent can individual live by their own rules, and to what extent do they rely on the support of society?

Humanity

Humanity represents individuality and freedom.  Humanity checks for accepting the law or respecting the rule of law.  Humanity checks also for betraying fellow pirates to the authorities.  Humanity is also embodied by romantic love
of the daring rescues and heartfelt commitments type.  (Mainly because I want to encourage romantic plots.)   Obsessive, addictive and compulsive behaviour also warants a Humanity check.

Demons will try and give you power over others, encouraging a respect for structure and society by giving you a vested interest in it.

Piracy, murder and theft do not qualify for humanity  checks, unless they are also expressions of tyranny.

A sorcerer with Humanity zero has accepted the authority and law.  Maybe, he's taken his treasure, bought a nice house somewhere and settled down.  Maybe, he's gotten a real job.  Maybe, he remains a pirate but is driven by a motivation other than freedom.  In any case, he is no longer a suitable player character.

Demons

Demons are rules and laws.   Paradoxically, the operations aboard a ship rely on the authority of a captain, and demons provide a powerful expression of this authority.  They are nearly always inconspicuous, object or parasite.   Their needs are closely linked to the rule that they seek to enforce, imposing whatever penalty for breaking the rules a the sorcerer as well as others.

The rulers of the various empires should be thought of as incredibly powerful sorcerers.  They impose laws upon the world as a whole, and wield vast powers to back them up.

Lore

Lore represents the ability to influence and persuade others by whatever means, intimidation, charisma, legal knowledge, etc - and of course the ability to summon demons.  It also represents the ability to recognise such authority, an to understand instinctively what the rules of a place are.

Adam

I'd like to see a pirate/sorcerer character and his demon.  I'd like to see what descriptors you would use -- I'm assuming that in this setting, more than in many, you need to customize the lists.  And I'd like to see a sampling of Humanity gain/loss check causes.  Particularly gain.

Chris

I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what your description of demons means.  To what extent are demons actual abstractions and to what extent are they actual demony creatures that represent abstractions metaphorically?  

Can you give some sample demons?

By the way, I like the way you turn humanity and demons on their heads.  I think of humanity as the force or order and demons as forces of chaos.

Hi,

I've been turning this idea over in my head, and I'm still pretty uncertain about concrete details.  The requests for examples are good, that's exactly what I need to develop.

Demons are not pure abstractions, beyond that, I'm thinking.

Good solid examples will follow when I've gained more inspiration.

Quote from: HenriBy the way, I like the way you turn humanity and demons on their heads.  I think of humanity as the force or order and demons as forces of chaos.

Thanks.  But, remember it's only half on its head.  Demons as tyranny, humanity as freedom.   Humanity is still what you're trying to preserve, demons are still a dangerous means that may or may not justify its ends.

Adam.

Quote from: cthulahoopsDemons as tyranny, humanity as freedom.   Humanity is still what you're trying to preserve, demons are still a dangerous means that may or may not justify its ends.

Oh, yes, I realized that!  What I mean is that we are putting chaos in a positive light by aligning it with freedom and order in a negative light by aligning it with tyrrany.  Of course, people have been doing that for a long time (at least since 19th century Romanticism), but I still thinks its a relatively original way at looking at "humanity" and "demons."

Could the pirate's Demon somehow be his ship?  That ws the first image I got, was a pirate who was blindly devoted to his ship, despite its evil reputation and curse attached to its name.

My thought is that Demons would be your compromises with authority.  Every time you use the tools of authority, you fall into their trap a little further.  They need not be even vaguely supernatural as long as they fit into the rules appropriately.  

Examples:
Object: A letter of marque, legalizing your piratical acts.  A governor's seal, used to falsify documents.  
Passer: An ally amongst the Establishment(naval officer, secret wife, etc.).  
Possessor: A subservient manner that you force on those around you.  


A longer example from one of my previous musings:

QuoteWatching Pirates of the Carribean, it struck me that Commodore Norrington is much like a Demon for Elizabeth Swann. There is a definite, uncomfortable relationship. He has access to relatively vast abilities she generally does not(military command, control of a ship), and is generally well-disposed to her, but wants things she's not necessarily willing to give.

So when Elizabeth needs the help of the british fleet to save Will Turner, she has to negotiate with Norrington. In fact, the scene where she promises to marry him in order to get his help strikes me as a Binding scene. Certainly she seems to give up part of her Humanity(as Identity/Independence) when she makes that bargain.

Now, you could present Norrington in game terms as an Immanent Demon with a Need for something like Good Uppercrust Lifestyle(including lady wife) and a Desire for Law, or something of the sort. Elizabeth, as the only eligible lady, has some pull already, and may have Pacted a few times before, but this time the Pacting fails, because Norrington gets a lot of bonuses to resist saving the life of the rival for his lady's affections. So she chooses to Bind, straight up, because saving Will is that important. Norrington's bonuses vanish, because the form of Binding(betrothal) kicks Will's chances with Elizabeth straight out the window. Norrington agrees, story continues...

Oh, and the Sacrifice mechanic would be neat if instead of killing a being, you turned a free spirit over to the authorities in exchange for consideration.  ('We can't give such a notorious pirate a letter of marque without a show of good faith.  Perhaps your bo'sun?')

Quote from: cthulahoops

Sorcerer Pirates

This sorcerer setting is based on sources which portray a romantic vision of piracy.  (...)

Humanity

Humanity represents individuality and freedom.  Humanity checks for accepting the law or respecting the rule of law.  Humanity checks also for betraying fellow pirates to the authorities.  Humanity is also embodied by romantic love of the daring rescues and heartfelt commitments type.  (Mainly because I want to encourage romantic plots.)  
Obsessive, addictive and compulsive behaviour also warants a Humanity check.

Emphasis mine.  There seems to be a certain internal contradiction -- the Romantic ideal seems to me to very much include obsessive, compulsive behavior, if you consider Heathcliffe obsessive and compulsive.  It certainly stands in contrast to the "play it safe" mentality of the Demons.

An object demon in the form of the whip you use to flog dissenters onboard ship would be a natural for this setting.

Or as a parrot. Parrots have always creeped me out.

I see three pirates: (1) the sellout privateer or ex-pirate, who's little more than a fat cat or paid mercenary for the Crown; ); (2) the dread pirate, the brutal murderer and looter, with neither code nor honor, etc.; (3) the dead pirate (enough said); and the noble swashbuckler, a la Dread Pirate Roberts or Jack Sparrow.

Interestingly, I think that the fourth case is so extremely rare, and it's easy to slip into one of the other three cases. I think Humanity is freedom, and the Demons are Power in various forms - either coercive power you control (bigass cannons, brutal crew), or coercive power you're lending from some other power figure (like a writ from the Crown).

I feel that the ability to sin on the side of royal power OR your own brutality is key. At its base, it's coercive power; and you need some coercive power to preserve your own autonomy, but you're also invalidating your justification for autonomy by being coercive yourself! Is this a good direction for Pirate-humanity, or is it straying to far from the source?

Hi,

Sorry for the delay in responding here.  Other things have been distracting me and I had wanted to come back with more material rather than just responses.  For the moment it's just responses and I'll come back with more material at some point hopefully.

Paka,
Yes, the demon ships are a great concept - but they couldn't be the only demons as I don't want to restrict players to pirate captains as characters.   Anyone in a piratey setting could be a freedom obsessed rebel.

angelfromanotherpin,
I prefer supernatural demons, but they could still masquerade as elements of authority so that's good.  I read your other thread, and I'm not that interested in non-demon demons.  On the other hand I love the sacrifices suggestion.

Danny,
Yes, I think you're right - I wanted to include romantic plots, but maybe the humanity definition isn't the right place to do it.  In my defense I was think about burning, love at first sight swinging into battle rather than brooding Heathcliff-esque love.
By obsessive behaviour I'm actually mainly thinking of alcoholism and the like, but in essence anything that controls you that you stop gaining enjoyment from.  So, it's okay to be deeply in love, so long as it makes you more free rather than less.

Bob and Tetsujin,
Parrots and Whips are definitely good.

Dev,
That's exactly it.  It's a tightrope.  Thanks for laying that out so clearly.