The Forge Archives

Mike Holmes and I have been working through a plan to publish the current Iron Game Chef games in a single tome.  While there are likely a few kinks to work out, this is going to happen... so long as the authors don't mind.

To this end, I need a good chunk of the authors to lend permission to publish and edit their work on the IGC competition.  After discussion, some retooling may be seen as necessary by the authors, however, I urge the authors to only make their systems "work", and add no more than a few pages of flavor text, if any.  The games, as they stand currently, are brilliant, and we all know what happens when you fuck with brilliance.

The general guidelines Mike and I have discussed are as follows:

-no entry should expand to more than 150% its IGC-entry size
-you may add art, but the pieces will likely be B&W, and I urge a cover and maybe a character sheet only.
-yes, you will be given a portion of profits from the publication
-yes, the Forge is okay with this
-no, this will not cost you a dime
-Mike will be the primary editor (and when I say "primary", I generally mean "only")
-I will handle layout and graphic design stuff
-final publication will be in perfect-bound form

I would count it a blessing if the authors would either PM permission to both Mike and I, or just respond to this post with your "yes", concerns, or denials.  If you deny me, I may cry, and you don't want to see me cry.

Thanks, kids!

Dav

I would definitely be interested in participating in this.

For the purposes of "finite rpgs", do you recommend that we make some attempt to make the game more conventional in form, or should we edit for structure and mechanics rather than larger issues?

I definitely suggest you edit for mechanics and "making it go" concerns.  In terms of putting it into a more conventional form, I can handle that from my end (I'm thinking of having an IGC border and such).  In general, I really just need a working manuscript from each person (and, if someone doesn't need any revision, I can just lift it from the actual IGC thread).  

Don't worry, you make the game, I'll make it pretty.... ish.

Mike will even do what he can to make us designers sound like people with command of language!

Dav

First off, yes.

Second off, I like those rules, especially the no more than 150% expansion. It's a nice constraint, even though I personally want to add a lot more than that to mine. I think, in answer to Shreyas, that we can probably deal with the finite rpgs issues that we see and are concerned about within that 150% working room for revisions. I don't know that we'd need to make them more conventional--I think the charm of some of the games is that they are finite rpgs. I'd say if anything I'd like to use my revision to make it a better finite rpg rather than more conventional. That may just be me, though.

Rich

Not only do I say yes, but if you need help with grammar checking, I volunteer to help.

1) Any detail on marketing/distribution plans? I assume we're talking indie single publication rights and stuff as far as legalities go?

2) Timetable? When are the games due, when would the publication happen?

3) More detail on layout and graphics. Is it completely the designer's purview?

4) Who is this meant for, specifically? Really any and all IGC games from all competitions are eligible, or will you choose the best of the pick? More than one game from an author?

I might be interested, if I got some fresh vision on the real nature of my games. Not really sure if they are feasible within the size limits, and not sure yet if I'll be expanding them for single publication. Not sure if I have time to rewrite into publishable form, my games being to the rougher side as far as writing quality is conserned. Not sure of much, really.

Quote from: Eero Tuovinen1) Any detail on marketing/distribution plans? I assume we're talking indie single publication rights and stuff as far as legalities go?

I think we're going pretty indie here in terms of distribution channels, but Dav has loads of other contacts and I think we could see a very wide distribution in theory. For now we're not thinking ridiculously big or anything, pretty modest.

To be clear on costs, all costs will be covered first before anyone sees a profit at all. It's not a royalties situation, but each person getting a share of whatever profits do occur.

Much of this is modeled after Luke's good works on the NPA.

Quote2) Timetable? When are the games due, when would the publication happen?

Pretty quick. Revisions would need to be in very soon, and I'd be turing them around like lightning. End result would be a GenCon release if we can pull it off at all.

Quote3) More detail on layout and graphics. Is it completely the designer's purview?

There may be other support available. Of course any artists who want to get their work in a publication should be contacting any author on this list and working out a deal. In the NPA the going rate was $20 per pic, which I think forms a reasonable baseline.

Quote4) Who is this meant for, specifically? Really any and all IGC games from all competitions are eligible, or will you choose the best of the pick? More than one game from an author?

With enough work put in, I think that almost all of the games submitted are acceptable. People will realize the nature of the contest (I'll be putting in a forward that explains all of this) so they'll know that not all of the games will be stellar. That said, they may be getting over a dozen gems for one low, low price.

I hadn't thought about including games from earlier IGC competitions, and am ambivalent about it right now. I'll confer with Dav, and we'll make a decision. I hadn't thought to include them, but now I'm wondering if it might not be a good idea.

QuoteI might be interested, if I got some fresh vision on the real nature of my games. Not really sure if they are feasible within the size limits, and not sure yet if I'll be expanding them for single publication. Not sure if I have time to rewrite into publishable form, my games being to the rougher side as far as writing quality is conserned. Not sure of much, really.

I think your games are better than you think they are, and all of them could be worked up into decent form for publication in the project. No problem whatsoever. All we'd need is consent from you and we can get working on it.


Jonathan, I'm definitely taking you up on that offer.


As for the finite games, no, they don't have to have anything added to them to make them less finite. Those games all do "go." And I'm not concerned with how finite they might be for purposes of the publication. We just don't want any real mechanical gaffes, or large areas lacking. Meanng, as I and Dav have said, that most of the games won't require too much tinkering at all.  

Mike

I'm in.

I was about to ask about which Iron Game Chef competitions were involved, but since that issue has alread been raised, might I suggest focusing on one set only for now, then release a second volume depending on the reception of the first volume.

another question: is this profit sharing + 1 copy, or do we buy our own copies? I'd like the former, but I can see how that might be a problem. of course, if it's "one PDF copy", that may eliminate the problem.

I've started editing and compacting IceRunner: a dweomerpunk fantasy setting and should have something pretty quick. as far as additional materials go, I think at the most I will list 10 or so traits for each "class", list 10 or so example curses and magics, and write out some examples of play. no real changes to the system.

I'll also try to do something about artwork, too.

First: certainly anyone who has a game in the published version gets a free copy.

Second: this ain't big bucks.  You'll make some beer money.

Third: we want no claims of ownership to anyone's work.  You keeps all rights and privileges, and can (and should) publish any games included on your own, in expanded or current form.

Fourth: Eero: I think you're making this more complex than it needs to be.  The games don't need huge overhauls and contracting and all that jive, this is a simple offer to put people's creative works into publication, gain some spotlighting for the IGC and the Forge, and maybe make a couple dollars on the side.  For the most part, the primary print run will likely be in the 500 copies range, with primary sales being direct, and distributors getting a fair share if they want some.  I anticipate that I can move 500 units of this without any problem, as convincing a distributor to buy crap-in-a-box is as easy as calling them up and asking them.  Generally, I can take this as far as it goes, but in terms of actual marketing... I'll definitely run the gamut of postings on various forums and outlets, as well as having a direct sales outlet on the Unfortuante Destinies website.  I will not be taking magazine spots or generally sinking cash into the marketing aspect of this, however.  This is an indie publication for an indie crowd, and I'm pretty determined to keep things on that level.

Lastly: for now, I would prefer to limit choices to the present IGC.  Depending upon how the first printing does, I'd be open to revisiting other printings, such as a "Best of" version, or what-have-you.  I'd rather not turn this into a full-scale mind-boggling hassle, and thus, I'd love to keep things reasonable for now.

I'd like to have a finished, or near-finished version of the IGC In Print by GenCon.  This, of course, means that I need thirty days of print time.  Check your calendars, kids, I want your work no later than mid-July.

Dav

Quote from: talysmananother question: is this profit sharing + 1 copy, or do we buy our own copies? I'd like the former, but I can see how that might be a problem. of course, if it's "one PDF copy", that may eliminate the problem.

Lots of good ideas here, Jonathan. We'll look at alternate methods of remuneration. I too would like a copy as part of my profit, should we see any.

QuoteI've started editing and compacting IceRunner: a dweomerpunk fantasy setting and should have something pretty quick. as far as additional materials go, I think at the most I will list 10 or so traits for each "class", list 10 or so example curses and magics, and write out some examples of play. no real changes to the system.

I'll also try to do something about artwork, too.

Compacting? No need to make any of these games shorter. Unless you think that a shorter presentation would be superior in some way. In fact, we're letting people add up to 50% on in revision.

So, with the additions that you mention, I think it'll be a pretty cool addition to the set. Thanks for being on board.

Something else that we forgot to mention, so there's no misunderstanding, you'll only be giving us publication rights, all authors will retain full rights to their own work. This means that if you want you can publish the game anywhere else you like and in any form you like. So if you decide to put your game out in a more heavily revised manner later (like Rich seems to have indicated that he's intrested in doing), then there's no reason why you can't. In fact this is one reason why we don't want people to edit the games too much from their current format - we want them to still have some of the raw quality of the condition that they're in right now. So your later editions should be able to improve a lot on these games should you pursue publishing them on their own, for instance.

{edited in: oops, Dav did say this}

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesWith enough work put in, I think that almost all of the games submitted are acceptable.

Emphasis mine.  I think you might as well be explicit here.  If there are some entries that you simply won't include, those authors need to know it before putting in any work.

What degree of rewriting is included in your editing?  

And more specific suggestions about the art that you'd like the authors to secure would be helpful.

Chris (who wants a copy or two for sure!)

Dav: I didn't try to imply any difficulties, just curious. Both the scale and rights situation are sensible and I'd go the same route. If the book is sold with the understanding that the games are incomplete competition versions, I see no problem with participation. As there's ample time too I'm in, but you can bumb me out if better games surface ;)

Mike: I'm not saying my games are unpublishable, it's just that I'm not completely clear on details. Which game, and how to cut and repair to get it in a near-playable condition? Especially as I see potential in each of them, but in forms different from this (fighting fantasy book, traditional gamefic and modular pdf, respectively). I'll have to think about which to develop for this, and what is the direction.

I like the idea of balancing between the rough versions and something really finished. Fix the obvious problems but keep the rough edge, with the implication that the reader really should fill the holes himself. It'll be a challenge to keep the style. I for one wouldn't mind some introspection from Mike and Dav on the extent of the work. Substantial rewrites or additions? Playtesting? Foolproof mechanics or brave risks left for the reader to navigate?

As to the game... The Brotherhood would be the easiest to make self-sufficient, but it could be the most pointless too (I'm rather envisioning it as a modular general fantasy right now). the Atlantis game could fly with slick writing, but it'd be a real challenge to transmit the heavily Situation-focused premises and themes (the Chairman didn't get half of it, for example) without a whole lot more text. The Battle of the Frozen Waste on the other hand is most probably unplayable without arduous playtesting, and it's really ugly as hell in certain respects. Hard choices.

I'll have to take the actual thinking on this to another thread, I suppose. Anyway, you can count on there being a game before July deadline (the seventh month, right?) if nobody cancels.

My concern is about the games being playable. I didn't playtest my game, and though I think it's playable, I haven't any guarantee. I'd love to see Terra Australis in the thing, so long as the purchasers understand that these games are the product of quick and inspired design, rather than drawn-out and playtested design. I'd hate for people to cry foul and review it with "only a third of these are actually playable" comments. Mike, I'm guessing you're covering this angle when you say "they'll know that not all of the games will be stellar." So, if you're covering my concerns with your forward, then awesome.

What format are you looking for? Something like the final entry submission? Or would it include the development posts? Technically, what file format & specs (dpi, color range) for the art & writing?

With a deadline of mid-July, I may be able to get some playtesting in. So how much can it differ from the IGC entry? My current Terra Australis draft is pretty different (cleaner, easier, better, but different) than the original IGC post.

[Edit: Oops, I see that rawness is encouraged. In that case, I should get the manuscript out in no more than a week. I won't playtest it, I promise!]

Quote from: Christopher WeeksI think you might as well be explicit here.  If there are some entries that you simply won't include, those authors need to know it before putting in any work.

OK, fine.

Dav, I'm not putting that crappy treasure hunting game in. Unless you put some really serious work into it.

There, satisfied, Chris?

My point is that all of the games can go in if the authors put in just a little effort. I'm just hedging in case I get someone with a farily broken entry who wants to submit it as is without any work. I don't suspect this will happen, but I do reserve the right to deny somebody if they aren't serious about their participation. Given that all the authors had the gumption to come up with whole games in one week, I think this will not be a problem.

QuoteWhat degree of rewriting is included in your editing?  

Who's editing? Yours or mine? For the authors, they can, of course, change things any way they like. For my part, I'll be editing a bunch of games, so you can bet that I won't hardly be making any actual writing changes at all.

In fact, what you're more likely to see from me is just notes like I include on any game - suggestions for how you can rewrite it. And in no case will it be a My-way-or-the-highway situation. If we disagree, then I'll probably just put in what you send me. It'll be your name on it anyhow. :-)

Jonathan may, OTOH, be more severe with the grammar revisions, but I don't think that'll change the content at all.

QuoteAnd more specific suggestions about the art that you'd like the authors to secure would be helpful.

We'll provide more details as we work that out. But at this point I'd start thinking about having at least one picture, line art, BW, 1200 DPI, fits on one page and probably smaller. And perhaps a logo for the game with similar specs. I think Dav actually already has people lined up to do some graphics for it.

Mike

Quote from: Eero TuovinenI for one wouldn't mind some introspection from Mike and Dav on the extent of the work.

As editor, that's what you'll be getting from me. To be clear, I'm going to go over every game and have a dialog with the designers to see what we should do. I can't make any blanket statements, because each game is different.

QuoteSubstantial rewrites or additions? Playtesting? Foolproof mechanics or brave risks left for the reader to navigate?

Possibly all, possibly none. Again depends on the game. If you want to get into specifics, then start a thread on Indie Design about the game in question, or PM me about it.

To be specific, Eero, I want all three of your games if you'll let us print them. They all can be made more than presentable for the product. I think that people are thinking that more editing will be required than there really will be. Think about it this way: at one point we were speculating on just throwing all of the games in just as they are now with no revisions at all. What we've settled on is just punching them up here and there. So the process shouldn't be difficult.

Which is to say that none of these games is going to go in perfect. If you want that, then publish it later on your own after you've had time to do far more reflection on them.

Mike