The Forge Archives

Hey folks.

Issue #2 of GQM is due out in time for GenCon.  It is scheduled to include a column by Peter Adkison featuring (at least in part) the Forge and Forge games.

Their initial distribution was reported as

QuoteDISTRIBUTION
26,000 direct mail to dedicated game playing consumers in USA
10,000 direct mailing to USA stores
49,000 shipped via distributors to stores in USA, Canada and UK

But even if thats off by a good bit, that's still some hefty exposure.

My thought was that this would be a perfect time to get an actual advertisement in a magazine that circulates to retailers (and seems to have gotten good initial response) timed with Peter's article.


But the add space isn't cheap.  I'm not sure if we qualify for the reduced rates or not (have a query in) but either way its some bucks.

Charter Rates
Display Advertisements            Feature Articles
Front Cover: $3,900                
Back Cover: $3,500
Inside Front Cover:  $3,100
Inside Back Cover:   $2,900
Full Page:  $2,600                    20% off the display ad rate.
Half Page: $1,400                    15% off the display ad rate.
Quarter Page: $750                10% off the display ad rate.
Eighth Page: $450
Front Cover Headline: $600 per  
   maximum four headlines

* There will be a new products features section, with 1/8th page plugs w/picture.

STANDARD RATES                    
Display Advertisements            Feature Articles
Front Cover: $5,000
Back Cover: $4,500
Inside Front Cover:  $3,900
Inside Back Cover:   $3,700
Full Page:  $3,400                    20% off the display ad rate.
Half Page: $1,800                    15% off the display ad rate.
Quarter Page: $1,000                10% off the display ad rate.
Eighth Page: $600
Front Cover Headline: $900 per
   maximum four headlines[/list:u]


I'm thinking that if 8 of us went in on a full page ad we could each get 1/8 space (slightly larger than a credit card) for about $325 (if we qualify for the charter rate) or $425 (if we don't).

4 of us could go in on a half page for $350 to $450.


That's not peanuts for an indie publisher, but this could very well be the perfect opportunity to get exposure.  People will pay attention to Peter's comments.  Ideally, there'd be some reference to the Forge to tie into the column.

The deadline to reserve space is 6/15 and the deadline to submit the actual ad is 7/1, so if we're going to do this, we'd need to do it quickly and also agree on who's doing the layout for it and what each participant would need to submit.

I'm happy to coordinate the financial end and place the reservation, make the payment and collect the payment from the participants, but my layout skills are not worth beans.


I'll answer questions as best as I can, but at this point I don't know much more than I've said.

Any interested parties willing to cough up that kind of money for a part of an ad?

Ralph,

Will the magazine guarantee placement of the ad near Peter's article?

Paul

holy frejoles!

you're not kiddin, that ain't cheap!

that's for one month's advertising? That's outrageous! At least for game publishers, it is. I imagine that microsoft and sony and the other video game advertisers will have no trouble filling that space.

by way of comparison, GTM offers half pages for $375.

-L

QuoteWill the magazine guarantee placement of the ad near Peter's article?

Their stated ideal is for contributors to write a feature article and then purchase an ad along side it (i.e. "feature article" = promo piece).  We obviously aren't writing a feature article (Peter is) but it seems reasonable that they'd want to have us in that space since it aligns with their general policy.  

They actually give discounts for ads used in that way but I don't know if we qualify since it isn't our article.  I have inquired

Quotethat's for one month's advertising?

Not sure.  It might be for four.  The accompanying text was very confusing.  For instance it said the Charter Rates apply for the first four issues.  Which grammatically could mean a per issue special that lasts for the first four issues.  Or it could (given that its called a "charter" rate) be a four issue run for those who got in right at the beginning.

I already have an inquiry in to them.

They give discounts for adjacency (i.e. ads next to relevant articles)?!? Are they crazy? That's premium positioning for many magazines. [EDIT: Nevermind. I didn't realize they're running advertorial as well, i.e. articles publishers or clients pay for, and boy do they  pay for it. Cheaper ads in that context makes sense.. ]

Ralph, where'd you get these distribution numbers? What's the cost per thousand for the ads?  Can they verify readership with any kind of reporting? (In other words, how do I know my cost per thousand is actually reaching those thousand folks.) These rates do seem very high, but then again WotC and others are advertising, not indie guys, typically.

I'd say you'd REALLY have to think whether $300-$400 is worth the return on investment, especially considering the fact that you're sharing ad space with other games. Who gets to go on top? Who's on bottom? Who designs the ad? Etc, etc.

I would have to sell one HELLUVA lot of copies of Dust Devils and/or Nine Worlds to recoup my investment in 3 months. That just doesn't seem likely to me, especially for an ad one-eighth the size of a page.

Quote from: Matt SnyderThey give discounts for adjacency (i.e. ads next to relevant articles)?!? Are they crazy? That's premium positioning for many magazines.

Keep in mind, its not a magazine, its a promotional trade mag.  The idea I believe is John Doe buys 3 full pages.  2 of those pages are used for an "article" on "how to organize a CCG tournament" which just happens to feature the Blahg CCG in the examples.  The third page is then a full page ad for the Blahg CCG (which happens to be owned by John Doe).  

A handful of industry luminaries get regular columns which I would guess they don't pay for (and maybe get paid for) in order to give the magazine additional credibility and attraction.

QuoteRalph, where'd you get these distribution numbers? What's the cost per thousand for the ads?  Can they verify readership with any kind of reporting? (In other words, how do I know my cost per thousand is actually reaching those thousand folks.) These rates do seem very high, but then again WotC and others are advertising, not indie guys, typically.

This isn't a subscription magazine I don't think.  They print up 10,000 copies and direct mail stacks of them for free to select retailers.  Print up another 40,000 copies and send those to distributors to stuff with orders or so retailers can request additional copies.

I suspect the ad prices are high because there isn't any subscription income and the whole cost is footed by paying advertisers.

QuoteI'd say you'd REALLY have to think whether $300-$400 is worth the return on investment, I would have to sell one HELLUVA lot of copies of Dust Devils and/or Nine Worlds to recoup my investment in 3 months.
That just doesn't seem likely to me

Well, that depends.  If you make $10 profit per direct sale, then $400 is 40 direct sales.  If you sell on average 10 copies a month direct, then if the ad does nothing you're out 4 months of revenue.   But if the ad reaches 40 people who buy your game who never would have heard of it any other way, you break even and expand your reach.

But this will be of additional interest to those who are in distribution channels, as the primary readership will be retailers and game store customers who pick up a copy at their FLGS.

As a general rule, I probably wouldn't be interested in footing the cost either...but it just seems like an extraordinary opportunity (not likely to be repeated any time soon) to have the Forge called out by name in an article by Peter Adkison in the second issue of a magazine going out to thousands of gamestores across the country.  It might be a total bust, kiss $400 good bye, but it seems a shame to let that opportunity pass without at least attempting to capitalize on it.

Focusing on the cost here, may be an example of being "penny wise but pound foolish"



All of the information I have so far was provided via email from GQM in March when they announced the launch.  I suspect every publisher listed in the quarterly catalog got that email.

Quoteconsidering the fact that you're sharing ad space with other games. Who gets to go on top? Who's on bottom? Who designs the ad? Etc, etc.

quite right.

That would be the purpose of this thread.  Someone would have to design the ad...the participants would have to agree on the format.

Would it be 1 full page ad focusing on drawing attention to the Forge with highlights and websites for the games of participating parties?  Would we divide the page into 8 segments with 8 independent adverts (each about the height and 1/3 longer than a credit card)?

No idea.  

Alls I know are two things.

1) I find the possibility of having a Uni ad right next to a Peter Adkison article talking about the innovation to be found in indie publishing and which likely mentions The Forge prominently to be quite exciting; and

2) the deadline for reserving space is in 11 calendar days.

Hey Ralph,

How many copies of the magazine does an advertiser receive? If I were to place an ad, I'd want at least one copy (and preferably three or four copies) of the magazine for my sales kit that use when pitching My Life with Master face-to-face to retailers.

Paul

Ok, have some additional info.  

First, Mark indicates that Peter has elected to delay his article until issue #3.  This could actually be a good thing because it will be the post GenCon issue and he may well have some additional thoughts about what he sees there to share.

I shared with Mark that leveraging that article was my primary goal, and he indicated that can ensure we get our ad space with the article.


Second he also had what sounds like a pretty good suggestion.  As I indicated above, the SOP for the mag is for publishers to purchase space to write feature articles (i.e. extended promos) to accompany their ad.  They then get the space at a discount.

Mark's suggestion was that we buy a full page and use half for an article and the other half for our ads to bring the price down.  Then (assuming I followed his email correctly) he prints the article half in the upcoming Pre Gen Con issue #2, and the ad half with Peter's article in issue #3 but gives us the discount rate of $1400 (pending me confirming I interpreted him right).  I think Mark signed on to the Forge, so hopefully he'll pop in and correct me if he sees this.


What makes this idea appealing is that in addition to the above distribution to retailers and distributors, GQM also goes out to people on the GenCon mailing list (I don't know if this is the entire GenCon mailing list or just this years preregs...)

Since issue #2 comes out pre Gen Con a half page promo for the Forge Booth would be pretty timely.  There are a number of ways this could go, but a write up of the Forge, what we do, what we stand for, and what we'll be doing at Gen Con should easily fill up half a page.


To go any further with that idea, I'd need to have some solid indications of who, is interested.  I'm pretty committed to having something for Ramshead in the magazine, but I think it would be far more powerful to have a real presence in the issue than just my tiny ad off in a corner.

Times ticking.

Quote from: ValamirGQM also goes out to people on the GenCon mailing list (I don't know if this is the entire GenCon mailing list or just this years preregs...)

I got a copy and I'm not preregistered.  I don't know where else they would have gotten my name.

Chris

Have to say I'm rather disappointed with the thundering silence.  Am I the only one who sees this as an opportunity worth pursuing?

I know there are a few of you out there already in distribution and a couple of more thinking about it.  This magazine goes directly to retailers.  I know there are a few of you going to GenCon, this magazine goes directly to the GenCon mailing list.  It doesn't get much more targeted for print ads than this.


The deadline for reserving space is TOMORROW:  6/15.

The ad is due 7/1

If no one else is interested, I'll go it alone.

Hey Ralph,

My thinking is that he upsold you. You wanted a half page ad, positioned next to Peter's article, for $1400. Did he say no to that? No, he pitched you on buying a full page, and explained how he'd do it, incorporating all the particulars of your original request. Were it me, at that point, I would have made him confirm that he was saying no to the original request.

I typically walk out on salesmen who don't answer my direct questions.

That said, I'd be willing to do around $300 for an advertisement, if it were located next to Peter's article. I'd prefer a montage ad, with some kind of graphic that integrates cover artwork from the individual games represented by the ad. And I'd insist on something like the following text:

My Life with Master
the award-winning roleplaying game of desperation, villainy, and self-loathing
by Paul Czege
is available only from Half Meme Press
(distributor and retailer pricing available)
www.halfmeme.com
paul@halfmeme.com

Paul

I don't think he upsold me Paul.  As I noted to Matt a couple posts up, the way the magazine works is they don't pay writers for their articles (save perhaps for their feature columnists...don't know).  Rather the company's pay them for space.  

If they use the space only for ads they get 1 rate, and the magazine becomes a rag full of ads that nobody reads.

If they use the space for a combination of ads and content (promotional content obviously) then they get a discount on the space and the magazine gets relevant content that people will actually read.

I had asked what the cost for ad only space was, and Mark pointed out that if we bought more space and used some for content we'd get a discounted rate.  You'll note that the $1400 he mentioned for a half page of content and a half page of ad is the same price as the half page of ad alone.  That's how they entice people to write articles for them.


Now that said, $1400 only works out to $350 apiece if split 4 ways.

You'll note that the $1400 he mentioned for a half page of content and a half page of ad is the same price as the half page of ad alone.

Aha...I totally misread that. I read "...and the ad half with Peter's article in issue #3 but gives us the discount rate of $1400" as being only the cost of that ad.

Paul

Wouldn't this be a good option for the currently in-production anthologies?  Or only if they're going through distrobution?  At $350 it seems like the ad needs to produce an extra ~50(?) sales to break even.  That seems pretty likely for such wide distribution.  Is there any way to predict with more accuracy than my wild-ass guess how valuable it would be?

Chris

Well, the deadline's gone, yes?

What did you end up doing?