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Hi all,

Figured I'd pick your collective brains a bit.

ramble part:

The situation is that I am running a BW game, and its begun to stumble for different reasons (this is not a post about that). So I've been looking for an alternative game where I can experiment with certain forgite ideas without any misinterpretations twisting my current game to pieces. (again this is not a post about this).

So what is this post about then? (aka stop rambling).

I just saw Troya, thought "Wow! I want to play a game where one can have duels and heroes like that," and dived into my RPG collection. Remembered HQ and read it with glee. Only a small problem, I don't like Glorantha. (Heresy, but the post is not about that). I spent quite some time hereat this forum, then it struck me: HQ would be a perfect system to run a Star Wars game.

I am aware of the problems with missile combat, and have seen some of the recent discussions on Space Combat. I'll wing this, no problem. My problem arises with the force.

what I'd do is to make Sense, Control and Alter affinities, and have the different force feats as feats under this.

What gives me a little pause is how to deal with the Light Side/ Dark Side conflict, should I create some sort of point scale or leave this to "narrator judgment".

I am thinking maybe something like an ability: Darkside Lure, which each force sensitive character has.

The points I struggle with so far are:[list]
[*]do this ability grant an augment to any force contests
[*]if the Darkside offers a hero-point to be used in the coming contest, how much will the Lure rise.
[*]Is there a contest between the Lure and the Hero to resist its temptation, if so simple or extended contest.
[*]Meditation can it reduce this Lure through an extended contest, with the caveat that it can never go away (minimum 5?)
[*]Should I simply give a character two affinities: Light side and Dark side[/list]

peace

K

Quote from: Negilent

HQ would be a perfect system to run a Star Wars game.

My thoughts exactly. :) I've been working with a conversion for a few months now. Unfortunately what I've managed to scrape together is mostly in Finnish.

Quote
I am aware of the problems with missile combat, and have seen some of the recent discussions on Space Combat. I'll wing this, no problem. My problem arises with the force.

what I'd do is to make Sense, Control and Alter affinities, and have the different force feats as feats under this.

I took the "Common Magic" approach, ie. every Force power is a skill in itself and they are raised independently but can be used actively. The player can augment the skills with other skills as usual. If a "Dark Side" emotion is used the GM can force the player to check for corruption. I'm not sure what to do about Concentrating the "magic."
Also, I divided the Force users into traditions, which teach different skills to their members. The traditions could also teach a Secret to their members.

Quote
What gives me a little pause is how to deal with the Light Side/ Dark Side conflict, should I create some sort of point scale or leave this to "narrator judgment".

This is my stumbling point as well. The conflict is such an integral part of the Star Wars universe, so it should be handled with care.

Quote
I am thinking maybe something like an ability: Darkside Lure, which each force sensitive character has.

The points I struggle with so far are:[list]
[*]do this ability grant an augment to any force contests
[*]if the Darkside offers a hero-point to be used in the coming contest, how much will the Lure rise.
[*]Is there a contest between the Lure and the Hero to resist its temptation, if so simple or extended contest.
[*]Meditation can it reduce this Lure through an extended contest, with the caveat that it can never go away (minimum 5?)
[*]Should I simply give a character two affinities: Light side and Dark side[/list]

I think the temptation part should be up to the Narrator. If a player uses a Force power for a destructive effect, the Narrator should
start an extended contest with the player. For a complete defeat the player falls to the dark side, for lesser defeats
he gets a bonus to Dark Side Lure depending on the level of the defeat.

Instead of the Dark Side providing hero points for the player, it could be used as an augment. Of course, this forces a contest against corruption.

There's my 2 cents.

Thanks for the input, love to see any notes in english/swedish if you have.

Quote from: tupalosaI took the "Common Magic" approach, ie. every Force power is a skill in itself and they are raised independently but can be used actively

.

This was sprung to mind first, but this then seemed actually more limiting than helpful. This is why I tend to think Affinities, with actual abilities becoming feats, which would allow you to augment with the three abilities Sense, Alter and Control, while letting the Force retaining some of its flexibility(this might be based on an imperfect grasp of Affinities and Feats).

Since we are here generating a sort of independent form of magic, is it any idea to have the three as Afiinities, augmenting the Force Feats which function like common magic?

Quote from: tupalosaInstead of the Dark Side providing hero points for the player, it could be used as an augment. Of course, this forces a contest against corruption.

I was figuring a combination of both, where an augment from Lure would represent the continual presense of the Dark Side and its temptation and the Hero-point (or bump?) would represent those times the Dark Side take a special intrest in the character. Like Luke in the Emeprors throne room. (as in WEG's SW)

This bonus the becoming unavailable when the character falls to the darkside!

Although as you suggested, the Corruption check, should be extended contest. But rather than rolling whenever the character acts with emotion I wonder if a more insidious mechanic being that the jedi's mental state (i.e. dark side emotions) will grant a modifier whether the jedi wants to or not. At the same time this adds one or more to the Lure rating.
At the same time a jedi can draw upon Lure to augment, taking an automatic increase in Lure equal to the augment.
And if he takes a Dark Hero Point he gets to add ten.
Certain actions will also grant adds to Lure, such as murder, torture and other evil stuff...

Corrution only happens when he achives mastery in Lure (and from then on whenever he gains Lure, and the extended contest can not reduce Lure.

Lure can only be reduced by meditating, and soul-searching, two different extended test "attacking" Lure. Grat sacrifice and good deeds may reduce Lure, but IMO this shouldn't be easy.

We have however yet to answer one question.

Dark Side Lure conflicts with what?What skill, trait, ability does DSL oppose in these tests?



Two caveats here:
1. I have never actually played HQ.
2. I have a lot of gaming experience from WEG Star Wars, and own much of the d20 version. (this might be colouring my ideas).

I don't really know the HQ rules (I'm up to page 73 as of last night) very well, but if I'm understanding the conversation, it seems like you'd have a more powerful lure if you didn't make it such an in-your-face mechanical effect (like an extended conflict).

I'm not sure how to do this mechanically, but I'd like to have a factor (skill?) that rises as the character commits wicked acts, particularly with the aid of The Force.  That factor then augments any Force use that the character wants to use it for and harms (what's the opposite of augment -- does it just augment the target roll?) every contest/roll for everything else.  In play, there will be powerfully tempting opportunities to fall back on the dark side, but at a huge cost.  Over time, the Force user who does so will become more and more dependent on The Force and will eventually be consumed by it.  The trick is for the casual user to actually acquire a wee little bit of dark-side factor (or whatever) and use it only very, very sparingly.  Then it's about whether one can use "evil" in the service of "good."

Another thing, I've spent many, many hours playing first edition WEG SW, but I wonder if reformulating Force powers such that you're not falling on the Control, Sense, Alter paradigm might be a more powerful statement.  I actually think that The Force would be better represented by a largely improvisational magic system (but I haven't gotten to that section of the book, so I don't exactly know how to say what I mean).

Chris

I'm a casual fan of both HQ and Star Wars, so I'm just ducking in to mention Dan Bayn's take on Star Wars and how he handled the Force...read it for yourself at:
http://www.bayn.org/games/starwars.pdf

Basically, the force is just an energy field that you can use in dark or light ways. All that Jedi talk about the dark side corrupting is flowery language for 'be good.' If the force is directly used to harm or purely for persoanl gain, you're a Dark Sider. The Jedi simply go after Dark Side Users to bring them to justice. The Sith go after the Jedi when they get in their way.

This neatly avoids having to figure out mechanics for any dark-side temptations/use. It seems like HQ's rules for personality traits would work great for rewarding (improving results) any force use.

Sorry if this doesn't quite gel with what you're trying to do, but it seems to fit the feel of the movies so much better than tracking numbers.

Sparky

Hi Chris,

Having gone through all three editions of WEG SW I admit to being well coloured. You are right that one can go away from the Alter, Control and Sense paradigm.

You could have like Tulaposa suggested a series of "common magic " skills to represent your individual skills in the force (force jump, battle meditation) and an Affinity simply called the Force which can be used to augment everything, including the "magic skills". easier, better and I think I like this more.

So I now have:
[list=a]
[*]Lure of the Darkside
representing the pull of the darkside, growing with each wicked act and offering its augment to every use of the force.
[*]The Force
an affinity for the "midichlorians" (retch), and affinity which can augment everything but at situational risk of increaing Lure.
[*]Force skills
abilities using only the force to performe amazing mental and physical feats used like common magic.
[*]The need for an opposing force (no pun) to the Lure
Willpower springs to mind, or maybe some sort of ritual training (Jedi training?)
[/list:o]


IMO SW is very Black and White, or the Force is at least. But before I sidetrack us into a discussion on the nature of evil in Star Wars, let me make my original argument here:

Using the Dark Side should be a concious choice, and there is a threshold where the road back simply is no more. Here I suggest an extended conflict outlined in my post above.

Perhaps this then gives rise to a new trait: Redemption to the Light, which conflicts with Dark Sider. A reversal of the Lure and Jedi training conflict.

To prevent abuse there could be a limit on Jedi Training

Quote"is the dark side more powerful?"
"no, quicker, easier and more seductive."

but not to Dark Sider, yet at a certain level Consumption begins. Risking the excistance of the Dark Side devotee.



Becasue I really like your point about consumption, and the idea of a penalty to all contests not driven by darkside force is worth futher exploration.

Could it be so that where darkside bonuses before added to Lure, now add to Consumption, which will one day come into conflict with your essence. Either will or body? or maybe with Dark Sider, like Lure conflicted with Jedi, but the Consumption can not be reduced by meditation like Lure.

Quote from: SparkySorry if this doesn't quite gel with what you're trying to do, but it seems to fit the feel of the movies so much better than tracking numbers.

Thanks for the link, I guess what I am trying to is model a way where using evil in a "two shaded setting" gives the player something to relate to instead of just a narrative: oh you're so evil, but he is soooo evil.
And in the extended universe, the emperor ages quickly because of his "addiction" to the force.(Dark Empire, Black Horse Comics)

Maybe this is all too sim for HQ, I don't know.

K

Quote from: NegilentUsing the Dark Side should be a concious choice, and there is a threshold where the road back simply is no more. Here I suggest an extended conflict outlined in my post above.

Either this threshold is so deep into depravity and evil that it's meaningless, or it isn't supported by canon, in my opinion.  By the time we're watching Return of the Jedi, we firmly have the idea that Vader has showered in the blood of his innocent victims countless times.  And yet, Luke is able to bring him back -- an seemingly before his death, so you can't use that as an out.  :-)

That said, I'm not really opposed to it, I just question the need to set such a threshold.

Chris

I'd do simple contests. Penalties on corruption checks apply to resisting the next time, or to reducing the effective level of the dark side. If you ever get to complete victory, you lose your dark side ability. If you ever get to complete defeat, the character becomes an NPC ala Sorcerer, until another PC redeems the character by overcoming the character's dark side ability.

Note that I think that the Dark Side ability should be a flaw, and the player should be able to take it at whatever level they like. Also, when stressed, if the player plays giving into the dark side at that time, tapping in, then they should be allowed to raise it some. Probably as much as they want to represent how upset the character is.

Also, another way to deal with this is thinking of the force as spirits. The Dark Side especially. So you have this relationship with the spirit in question. When you bring it out, it whups all ass (as Spirits from a fetish - consider the light sabre the fetish - do, having a bonus equal to the rating).

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesI'd do simple contests. Penalties on corruption checks apply to resisting the next time, or to reducing the effective level of the dark side. If you ever get to complete victory, you lose your dark side ability. If you ever get to complete defeat, the character becomes an NPC ala Sorcerer, until another PC redeems the character by overcoming the character's dark side ability.

I think it's up to the GM and the players to decide wether the contest should be extended or a series of simple contests, but I don't think the lure of the dark side can be completely defeated nor should the control of the character be lost if the character falls to the dark side.

Quote
Note that I think that the Dark Side ability should be a flaw, and the player should be able to take it at whatever level they like. Also, when stressed, if the player plays giving into the dark side at that time, tapping in, then they should be allowed to raise it some. Probably as much as they want to represent how upset the character is.

I guess that's one way of handling the Lure, but if the players are to retain control of the characters, even if/when they fall to the Dark Side, I'd just use an ability called the Lure of the Dark Side which the player can either raise or lower. It could function as a flaw sometimes but could also be used to augment aggressive use of the Force.

Quote
Also, another way to deal with this is thinking of the force as spirits. The Dark Side especially. So you have this relationship with the spirit in question. When you bring it out, it whups all ass (as Spirits from a fetish - consider the light sabre the fetish - do, having a bonus equal to the rating).

I took the Common magic approach to keep things simple because I don't think the Force powers in themselves are interesting, they're just another form of magic. The danger of falling to the Dark Side makes much more interesting stories IMHO than characters tossing Force Lightning around.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense, haven't had much last night...

How you decide to handle the dark side will depend on how you interpret Jedi philosophy.

The way I look at it, there are no seperate Dark Side powers, or even dark side ablities, such as Lure. The dark side is just a way of talking about what Greg Stafford calls 'entanglement with the world' when he taks about Gloranthan mystics. It's the temptation to use the Force not so much for evil, but in selfish or arrogant ways. The point is that even if you choose to do so for 'good' reasons, by believing that you have the moral right to use your power to intervene you are playing god. Power corrupts.

A good Jedi is master of his emotions and passions. This could be represented by a Meditation ability, or a range of related philosophical and mental disciplines. Raising these diverts points away from powerful foce and combat abilities and even relationships. The temptation is to raise the most powerfull abilities and let the disciplines slide. The temptation of the Dark Side is when your own best 'power' abilities tempt you to take action when you shouldn't, triggering a contest between your 'power' abilities and your disciplines.

Will Anakin's Love for the pirncess overcome his Vow of Chastity? He's challenged to a showy demonstration of his combat abilities. Will his Modesty overcome his Close Combat?

It's an internal struggle, not an external power invading his mind. It's much more subversive than that.


Simon Hibbs

That's an outstanding approach simon.  Its completely consistant with all of the legitimate SW canon <cough>first three movies<cough> and in one fell swoop does away with all of the unnecessary baggage attached to d20 SW that tried to treat them like seperate classes.

If I were going to do SW HQ, I'd definitely latch on to this.

How do these internal struggles get played out?

Chris

Great inputs, thanks. Mind that what comes below are just words.

Quote from: TulaposaThe danger of falling to the Dark Side makes much more interesting stories IMHO than characters tossing Force Lightning around.

We all agree on this.

Quote from: Simon_hibbsHow you decide to handle the dark side will depend on how you interpret Jedi philosophy.

And looking at all the responses I guess we all directly or indirectly agree on this.

*draws a big breath*
So I am going to narrow the focus a bit to prevent this from becoming a " "Force-using philosophy" or a "what is SW canon" discussion.

What I am looking for.
I am adding HQ SW to my already filled agenda because My group is making its first tentative steps into narrativistic play, and is firmly entrenched in the Illusionism and Sim camp. I am taking them out into the bigger world a small step at a time.

My group sees the WEG Star Wars and the Expanded Universe as canon because of many a good time with WEG. This is the basis for the following:

I have however been convinced to to get rid of the WEG paradigm of Alter-Control-Sense. So I will call this simply
The Force.
-which will be a Common Magic Keyword representing the mastery of the force. (I'll be simply calling Common Magic the Force)

"Force Feats" will then simply be aspects(abilities) of this representing different areas of focus (like battle meditation) and skill.

Futher I have
Jedi
- which is an occupation key word, with specialities from healer to knight. It also contains the ability called Meditation, which is used by the Jedi to maintain his
Balance
- representing the characters control over his emotions and feelings. this is also how the character resists the temptation of the Dark Side.

I need (because my players do) a mechanism to represent the temptation of the dark side,
The Lure of the Darkside
- being the little seed of ego inside us all, the chime of darkness that whispers in the back of ones mind, because as Simon put it:

QuoteIt's an internal struggle, not an external power invading his mind. It's much more subversive than that.

Why? I hear you groan. Our local take on the Dark Side is that it is an internal struggle helped by the by the omnious pull of the external force, aka The Dark Side.

The fiddly bits
The chacters can draw upon the emotions assosciated with the dark side knowing that the Lure inside their hearts will grow stronger. Eventually claiming them and making them "evil".
They can turn to the dark side for help by augment anything with Lure, again knowing that the roots in their hearts grow.
And at certain junctions the Dark Side may swell around them offering aid, at a great cost.

Thus the dark side becomes "quicker, easier".

It remains a choice.

The Cost
Using the above fiddly bits engages a contest between Lure of the Darkside against Balance, with Lure being augmented by the augments used by the straying jedi,and other situaltional modifiers.

Any defeat here reduces Balance.

If Balance sinks lower than the Lure the character becomes a Dark sider, and this aspect of the force begins to consume him. His Balance is no longer used.

instead he gains
Hate
- representing the black pit in his soul that now fuels his use of the force and can be used to augment anything.

unfortunatly for the Dark Sider, when ever he fails a contest augmented by Hate, he runs the risk of it consuming him. Attacking the rest of his Balance, and if the result is that Balance is Dying the character is consumed by his hatred and becomes a howling ghost in the void between stars.

Redemption
A character trying to redeem a dark sider must find the spark (Balance) inside and stack enough augments to this Balance against Hate, in an inverse of the Lure/Balance conflict, to tip the scale the other way, with Hate reverting to Lure if Balance is restored (Hate Dying).

The Light sider uses augments like father-son relationship, his own Force and so on.

Lure the lurks one point under the restored Balance, and the long path of redemtion can begin.


Just need to figure out the starting score of Hate.


BTW I read you Simon, but I feel this approach is more palatable to my players.

Peace

K

Sorry, this just struck me:

Quote from: SimonWill Anakin's Love for the pirncess overcome his Vow of Chastity? He's challenged to a showy demonstration of his combat abilities. Will his Modesty overcome his Close Combat?

Vow aguments Balance, love augments Lure.

seems I missed that opportunity first time round.

My bad

K

Quote from: NegilentWhy? I hear you groan. Our local take on the Dark Side is that it is an internal struggle helped by the by the omnious pull of the external force, aka The Dark Side.

Whereas I see it as being the Dark Side of your own nature. Just a different way of looking at it.

Sure. In the films, it is apparently characterised as an external influence and I can see the practical advantages of modeling it this way. I'm a bit of a purist on these things though.

QuoteBTW I read you Simon, but I feel this approach is more palatable to my players.

Taking personal responsiblity for one's actions is rarely palatable.

Actualy your mechanics avoid that to an extent because the characters still have to do bad things to increase their DSL ability. But why would they ever do something like that? What's the pull towards evil? What's to stop them just ignoring the temptation, it doesn't seem to me to be very tempting.

I don't know. I can't hnestly say I can realy suggest a better system at the moment though.


Simon Hibbs