The Forge Archives

OK,

I'm having trouble with the whole "kicker" and "Hook" issue that was brought up in this thread:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12268

I think I have a challenge based Kicker system built into the game (It's actually the core of the reward system). The problem is that I'm not sure that what I'm thinking off is what everyone else is.

Can anyone give me some examples of premise based hooks and kickers and some challenge based ones?

Would something like this be what people would consider a challenge based hook system?

http://www.fudgefactor.org/2001/11/01/this_time_its_personal.html

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Hey Mindwanders:

Kicker, which may have been invented by Ron (I first encountered it in Sorcerer), is a quick story the player writes up that creates a sort of life-changing catalyst, something that the character can't or shouldn't ignore.

Have you ever seen Shallow Grave? Mysterious roommate dies and has under his bed a briefcase full of money. They have to do something about it.

An example I seem to recall from the book is the character comes home and finds his/her neighbor skinned alive in the shower. Try and ignore that. "Oh, my character turns on the TV and makes dinner." Sure.

Kickers tend to keep the game from starting off at a snail's pace. When you start playing, the players will definitely have things they want to do. Hide the body? Call the police?

A hook is basically the same thing, but provided by the GM.

I guess if you wanted to base a challenge sort of game on a kicker, you'd have to reward the player assuming multiple outcomes, not just "defeat the boss monster." Effective use of resources in doing whatever the player does, like losing few hit points, spending as little money as possible, etc. You can't say "in order to gain xp you have to defeat this bad guy." That contradicts directly with the player control a kicker is supposed to provide. What if I want to avoid the bad guy and leave town? Make that a challenge,  and base the reward on how well the player pulls it off.

Does that help?

In my mind, kickers and hooks are opposite sides of the same coin. That is, a kicker is the player suggesting a meaningful context of events in which he'll define his character, and a hook is the GM challenge response to something the player has defined about the character (a hook is the GM saying, "prove it").

So, I might create a kicker: my character just found a briefcase full of money under his bed.

But if I've defined my character as the world's last honest guy, the GM might put a briefcase full of money under my bed. And then it's a hook.

Paul

Quote from: mindwandersOK, I'm having trouble with the whole "kicker" and "Hook" issue that was brought up in this thread:

[snip]

I think I have a challenge based Kicker system built into the game (It's actually the core of the reward system). The problem is that I'm not sure that what I'm thinking off is what everyone else is.

Can anyone give me some examples of premise based hooks and kickers and some challenge based ones?

Ron, who is quite swamped, asked me to take a stab at this -- let's see if I can avoid impaling my foot.

First, just to be very clear, I want to establish the vocabulary I'm using.

A Kicker, by definition, is a player[/i]-authored situation that (IMO) puts the character into motion, often by somehow destabilizing that character's life.  (In the RPG Sorcerer, which is where I believe the phrase was coined, the creation of a Kicker is an integral part of character creation for the player.)

Based on the comments that Ron made in the other thread, I'm going to guess that he was implying that a Hook is a GM[/i]-authored situation that (hopefully) puts the character into motion in somewhat the same way as a Kicker.  I don't know if I'm interpreting that correctly, though, since that sounds a lot like a Bang to me...

QuoteBANG (another Forge term): Introducing events into the game which require a thematically-significant or at least evocative choice from one or more of the players.

... except that it's being used to start off a character's story.  Maybe that's all it is: we'll call a Hook a Story-Starting Bang, since 'normal' Bangs tend to be something other than a game-starting event... they're usually just something else you have to deal with once things get going.  :)

In either the Hook or Kicker's case, the introduced event makes it very nearly impossible for the character's life to go back to the way it was.  That's really the key part.  

Quote from: mindwandersWould something like this be what people would consider a challenge based hook system?

http://www.fudgefactor.org/2001/11/01/this_time_its_personal.html

I would say that that is a good challenge-based reward system and probably works great for gamist play (which, if I understand, is what you're aiming for), but nothing about it particularly says either "Hook" or "Kicker" to me, since none of the examples in the page you link to introduce a situation -- they assign goals.  This is not a *bad* thing, by any means, but they aren't really the same thing.

Allow me to illustrate my vague text with some examples.  Let's use one of your NPCs from the page you linked to:

QuoteCassandra, International Jewel Thief
* Find the rightful owner of a gold locket she stole by mistake, thinking it was a different item entirely.

This is a challenge -- something the player can have the character do to get a reward.  There are some assumptions made in its wording that make it un-Hook- or Kicker-like.  If it were written up as either a Hook or a Kicker, it would probably read something like...

KICKER (from player): During a recent jewel heist, Cassandra aquired a gold locket that she thought was an historically important gift from Henry VIII to his third wife, but is instead simply a gift the museum curator was getting for his fiance.

HOOK: (GM to player): "Yeah, it looks like the locket you grabbed was actually just a gift that helpful young curator you spoke with had gotten for his girlfriend."

Note that in both the examples I gave, the idea is not "here's what you need to do", it's "here's the situation, how do you deal with it?"  The reward system in such a game would come into play when the player resolved the situation in *whatever* way they decided was most appropriate to their character.  One viable response might be "I have to get it back to the rightful owner", while another might be "Fine. I'll pawn it."  Either way, Resolution Brings the Reward (or maybe Repercussions :).

Now, you can say that a Challenge ("here's what you have to do") presentation versus a Hook ("here's the sitch, how will you respond?") presentation are respectively Gamist and Narrativist.  You'd probably be right.  I'd submit that from the player's point of view it doesn't matter one way or the other.  Player's are going to play as they like and put whatever focus on it that they'd normally do: no one ever said any mode of play was conducted by worrying about it at the time. :)  *You* might know that there's a Gamist and Narrativist way to express the same situation, and be aware of which one you used, but it's unlikely anyone else will be aware of it.

-----

Finally, with all this said, let me add this observation... the example situation above makes for kind of a lousy example Kicker, anyway: there's really nothing in the situation that DEMANDS attention or action, and it certainly doesn't permanently change the character's life in any way.  (This all makes sense, though -- in the original example page, the reward for meeting the goal presented was pretty small.)

I'd like this one quite a bit more:

QuoteProve to her former friend, Inspector Wallace, that she did not steal six million dollars worth of art from a charity auction.

Expressed as a Kicker or Hook instead of a challenge it might be worded something like:  Cassandra's friend Inspector Wallace arrives on her doorstep and tells her that she is the primary suspect in an art heist from a charity auction, due to some 'calling cards' left at the scene.  His tone is grim, and (even worse) his eyes are full of reproach and disappointment.

-----

Anyway, hope this at least helps clarify the terminology use a bit.

Cool, that helps a lot.

I'll have to think about whether a kicker is something that works for the LARP I'm working on. I have already included a Challenge based reward system similar to the example I gave, so that may be enough for my purposes.

I am slightly worried that if I can't see a way something like this could work within my game (suported by the system or not) It may be a sign of a more intrinsic problem with the game. Kickers are not a narrativist tool, they are something that should work in any game to get it started fast.

Then again it may just be because I seem to have hit my gamist targets just right and as such it doesn't work because the game is very specifically designed to use the other players for Bang rather than elements of the players own background.

Quote from: mindwandersCool, that helps a lot.

I'm glad for that.

Quote from: mindwandersI'll have to think about whether a kicker is something that works for the LARP I'm working on. I have already included a Challenge based reward system similar to the example I gave, so that may be enough for my purposes.

If the characters are pre-gen by you, Kickers as such may be much more of a problem to work out ahead of time, and adlibing them into the game at the last minute (or during the first session) can be... messy.

If you're talking about you-the-GM adding some major life-change event to the pre-gen introduction ahead of time, I'm going to call that a Hook, and I'm going to say 'go ahead and do it, if it suits you.'  Certainly with a number of goals for each player to work on, such a major event may not be necessary.

Is there a unifying plot line going on in addition to these challenges you've put together for your characters?  By this, I'm wondering if these challenges you've arranged will be all that the players are working on, or if there's something 'big' going on as well.

Quote from: mindwandersI am slightly worried that if I can't see a way something like this could work within my game (suported by the system or not) It may be a sign of a more intrinsic problem with the game. Kickers are not a narrativist tool, they are something that should work in any game to get it started fast.

Someone (me, it looks like) will point out that, semantically, "Kickers" *are* a Narrativist tool by definition, in that the point of a Kicker is to present a situation a character has to respond to, and by that response create and/or illustrate the Theme of the game.   The classic example goes something like this: "Being attacked by viking berserkers is not a kicker.  Being attacked by viking berserkers carrying poloroids of you from the night before, while you're commuting to work... that's a Kicker."  :)

That said, starting a character's story by presenting them with a Kicker-like, life-changing event, while not technically a Kicker, is something that should work in most games... it's just the goal of the event introduction that's different.  Simple examples:

Narr: The character's response to the event is fun and interesting because it illustrates a Theme and/or addresses Premise.

Gamist: The character's response to the event is fun and interesting because their actions involve overcoming the inherent challenge with calculated risk taking.

Simm: The character's responses to the event (and the event itself) are fun and interesting because they help convery a strong impression of the setting and circumstances that comprise it.

Note that in all three examples, play is fun and interesting... that's really the only important goal :)

It's perfectly possible that you can have a very fun and interesting game without starting with a Kicker-like event, or perhaps the crisis event is less personal and more general... not every good book starts the same way, after all.

QuoteIf the characters are pre-gen by you, Kickers as such may be much more of a problem to work out ahead of time, and adlibing them into the game at the last minute (or during the first session) can be... messy.

They aren't. they will be generated by the players.

Have a look at the start of this thread to see the sort of game I normally run:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12124&highlight=

QuoteCertainly with a number of goals for each player to work on, such a major event may not be necessary.

Each character picks 5 relationships with player characters (they can assign them to existing characters or leave them open for new players to latch on to later) and 3 goals for thier character (hopefully based on thier relationships). These goals are replaced as they are completed and are rewarded when completed. This pretty much establishes the characters starting place in the game.

The whole thing is designed to be based around a noble court, so kickers that mean a character can no longer attend are pretty much out.

QuoteIs there a unifying plot line going on in addition to these challenges you've put together for your characters? By this, I'm wondering if these challenges you've arranged will be all that the players are working on, or if there's something 'big' going on as well.

It's very carefully designed to not only not require, but actually disallow the addition of GM created plot. We can give advice at character gen, but after that it's entierly up to the players to make the game. It should work in theory, but it may fall apart in playtest.

QuoteIt's perfectly possible that you can have a very fun and interesting game without starting with a Kicker-like event, or perhaps the crisis event is less personal and more general... not every good book starts the same way, after all.

I think you are right. I'm going to file this in the pile of ideas labeled "Cool, but not in this game.".

Thanks for all your help everyone :-)