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In other threads, it's been mentioned that one reason for companies not to sell pdf's is that they're afraid of piracy.

Now, I've seen some of what you can find on the net, via p2p programs like eMule and DirectConnect(++). As far as I can tell, this is how it works:

- White Wolf/WotC things are all over the net as soon as they're released. People scan their own pdfs and share them.
- Mid-range companies are also easy to find. Entire product lines from Columbia, ICE, Palladium etc have been scanned and shared by "fans".
- Indie games: Zilch. I've seen "The Pool", which is freeware, and "Little Fears" (don't know if that's an indie game or not). Otherwise: Nothing at all.

Why aren't indie games being pirated? Does this tell us anything about the personality traits of indie gamers as a group? Don't know, and obviously there's not going to be any research on the subject. It would seem like there's a big difference between being the first person to put something out for sharing, and sharing something you've downloaded from someone else.

Tis the same for music.
A downloader is more likely to download Linkin Park or 2Pac as  they're scanning the list, but are they going to download the complete unknown "Hearts that Hate"?
Folks who download do so because they are CHEAP. They want the cool, popular stuff without paying.
In this instance, the indie games ambiguity works for them. Even if they showed up on accident on a file sharers PC, folks are less likely to download them because they never heard of them. Plus, for the most part, the folks who do buy the indie games are into them for the games, want their own copies, want access to some stuff the creator makes available, and is interested in seeing more work from the indie communities.
I'm the same way with my music. I may download a single or two, but if theres a band I really like, I'll buy their CDs if only to support them.

There are certainly indie games to be found via P2P clients, that is actually how I came to know about the Forge in the first place, someone had Ron's collection of GNS essays in their share.

I do however enjoy supporting creative folks, so I have been buying games that I've already gotten through illicit channels. Plus with the indie games they're inexpensive in general, and you get superb customer support, so I do really not mind giving them some of my hard earned cash.

One way of avoiding the piracy issue seems to be SRDs and freebie versions of your games - although this obviously doesn't work for the most popular stuff. Most games that have freebie versions available, or stripped down art-less versions survive being pirated. For instance, you see tons of P2P users with the TROS Quick Start rules, and all the other TROS freebies, but nobody's sharing any of the full TROS PDF releases.

I also think that some indie authors are crossing over to the mainstream more than they realize, at least judging by how easily available their games are via P2P clients.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

Huh. Well, yeah, I've seen the essays, but they're free. But actual games...? What titles have you seen out there?

I didn't want to drop titles in this forum, but quite a few Anvilwerks, Adept Press, Ramshead, and Memento-Mori products.

Like most RPG companies worth their salt, Behemoth3 has corporate espionage specialists on our payroll. Normally our spies get jobs that are both boring (sifting through Phil Reed's garbage) and futile (not only did we not discover the secret dietary formula that makes him so productive, we didn't even find proof that it exists).

So our spies were very happy to be sent to infiltrate pirates' dens, even if the reality wasn't as swashbuckling as they'd hoped, and we were happy to be told that Maze of the Minotaur was being traded on P2P networks.

Why? Not just because it means we've "hit the big time".  The quality of our work is the best advertisement for Masters and Minions. One of the big problems with a PDF is that with a print copy, you can read it over pretty thoroughly in the store before deciding to buy; even the best demo of a PDF doesn't give you that sense of what it's all about. My reasoning is that the vast majority of people who pick stuff up via file-sharing wouldn't have bought it anyway. Some of them, like the honorable Yokiboy, might go ahead and pay for a copy once they check it out and see how cool and useful it is - and these are customers that we reached with no marketing effort on our part beyond just writing good books. Others might start playing with our material, introducing it to others, generating word of mouth, and thus creating customers for the printed editions of the "pirated" copies and future books in either print or PDF.

Does this mean I condone "piracy"? No, I think people should be paid for their work, for obvious reasons. But lumpley and I have talked about donating copies of our work to the Hampshire College library, because we're both alumns -- by some definition or another ;)  -- and I'm hoping to get the New York Public Libraries interested in creating a RPG collection. That's also a way that people would get to benefit from our Horde Books without paying for it, one we all agree serves the public good.

I might feel differently if we were pursuing a PDF-only strategy, because then we'd have nothing to sell you that wasn't identical to the thing you file-shared for free. As it stands, though, buying the PDF makes you a registered owner; you're eligible for 50% off the cost of the print edition, and entitles you to download some special content from our site (although right now all these extras could be file-shared too, at some point I hope to add membership/service type extras that you have to have a valid registration to enjoy). So that's one reason I'd recommend having print to back up your PDFs, even if the run size of the print edition is tiny.

Quote from: daMoose_NeoFolks who download do so because they are CHEAP. They want the cool, popular stuff without paying.

This may be a little off-topic, but I have to disagree with you there.  A growing number of p2pers share music not because they want to impress their friends with free Linkin Park, but because they're tired of the way the record industry rips off everyone but itself.  File-sharing can be an act of civil disobedience (more info at Downhill Battle).

In fact, to get back on-topic, I'd argue that's one reason why people file-share WoD products but not indie RPGs.  File-sharers are smart consumers (or, as Best Buy would say, "devils").  The big RPG companies are nowhere near as insidious as the RIAA members, but they're still very happy to overprice their products and rip off authors.  Intelligent consumers know that when you pay $30 for a new Big Name sourcebook, you're mostly recouping their advertising and executive-overhead costs; when you pay $14 for an indie PDF, your money is going (almost) straight to the author.  Which one are you likely to share, and which one are you likely to buy?

I don't think it has anything to do with personality traits of the the purchasers of small press/indie/whatever games.  I'm sure there are plenty of unscrupulous gamers who have purchased that kind of stuff.  I think it has more to do with the pool of people that purchase the games.  The more people you have in the pool, the more likely someone is going to piss in it.  

I just want to know who the schlubs are that have the time to scan every page of a book.  Do these people have jobs?  I barely have time to post on forums let alone scan a whole frelling book.

Keith

Actually, Brendon, not too off topic, and not too far from what I was saying.

People tired of getting ripped off by the industry = another way of saying "cheap"- you're not going to pay $20 for a CD. You're cheap.
What gets downloaded? Linkin Park or Band Down the Street? The popular stuff.
Thusly, how much is too much for an RPG? Generally $30 from the looks of things. Do folks mind spending $5-$15? Nope, not from Forge sales indications.
What gets shared the most? WoD and WotC or Adept Press and such?
In both instances you're going to find both the indie bands on the p2p and you're going to find the indie books. The difference is in what volume and whos downloading it.
90% of the indie folks around here give their systems or materials away already (evidenced by the apperent volumes TROS material that is already free). For an indie publisher though, its not the detriment its thought of to the RIAA, which has so much wrapped up in advertising, overhead and middle layers of "management". Exposure is wonderful for an indie publisher and if one guy rips off the title and plays it for his five pals who all want a good hard copy, theres another $50 to $100 in sales the author wouldn't otherwise have.
Plus, we're not hurt by investing thousands in artwork like WotC is, most publishers around here are concerned with content system wise more than they are 100 pieces of artwork for one book. Nor do most of us have ungodly amounts invested into production runs, hardcovers, wraparound covers, etc etc etc. So not only is Wizards advertising and management overhead insane, but their production costs as well.

So, what is one pirated book worth to an indie author? A little bit of theoretical math, you could end up with maybe $50 in your favor. Whats a pirated book worth to Wizards? damage. Not much, but for the most part, thats money they will never see.

Quote from: Bob GoatI just want to know who the schlubs are that have the time to scan every page of a book.  Do these people have jobs?  I barely have time to post on forums let alone scan a whole frelling book.

It is important to remember that it only takes one. And if they're willing to cut the book apart, it might not even be time consuming. There are scanners that will take a stack of papers and scan them one by one.

Even without a document feeder, scanning isn't particularly difficult. Bring a book to read and fire up iTunes, or a movie to watch, and you can pump through it all pretty quickly using something like OmniPage.

I've scanned several public domain works for my web site--Dumas, Wilde, and Carroll, mainly; I've even typed some shorter works in by hand.

I've also scanned (and typed) works that are not in the public domain, for my own use--it is very useful to be able to search some works if I'm writing about them or using them for reference.

In my case, of course, I don't distribute copyrighted works. But it isn't that hard to do for those who do distribute copyrighted works (or who just don't care if a work is copyrighted or not). There are probably many reasons why someone would do so.

Jerry

I think it could just have to do with audience size.  Probably the percentage of people downloading a book to the total number of players is the same.  But since there are fewer TROS, etc. players it just doesn't come up as often as the WOTC or WOD stuff.

QuoteFolks who download do so because they are CHEAP. They want the cool, popular stuff without paying.

Code Select Expand



...or there isn't any shops around where they live (or the shops shrinkwraps every books), or they didn't have a credit card or paypal (things are changing, but try to imagine you want to buy an indie-game while living in a non-paypal country. Of course, even in this kind of situation you doesn't have any right to download an illegal copy. But it will be more tempting).

I agree that most of the illegal downloaders want their stuff for free, but I think there is a significant part of the downloaders who are buyers also: with them, filesharing could generate sales, but there always be more "freeriders" than "future customers".

-----

I think the main reason of the "lack" of indie products on p2p networks is that most of the time when you buy a product, you buy it directly (or semi-directly) from the author: the connection is not a company-customer connection, but a more "human", fellow player-fellow player one. People doesn't care much about companies - but they do care about other people. So they wouldn't share their indie games (...as much as mainstream products).

Quote from: Rorimack
...or there isn't any shops around where they live (or the shops shrinkwraps every books), or they didn't have a credit card or paypal (things are changing, but try to imagine you want to buy an indie-game while living in a non-paypal country. Of course, even in this kind of situation you doesn't have any right to download an illegal copy. But it will be more tempting).

BL>  Would just like to point at that, in my experience, most game designers are more than willing to make allowances and work out various methods of direct sales when conventional methods fail.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben Lehman
BL>  Would just like to point at that, in my experience, most game designers are more than willing to make allowances and work out various methods of direct sales when conventional methods fail.

yrs--
--Ben

Do you think the average player knows this?

Quote from: Ben Lehman
BL>  Would just like to point at that, in my experience, most game designers are more than willing to make allowances and work out various methods of direct sales when conventional methods fail.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: greedo1379Do you think the average player knows this?

BL>  You do now.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  In all honesty, it depends.  Like, lumpley says on his website "If you'd rather work out some other sort of payment, that's totally cool." (not a real quote) Other people aren't so upfront about it.