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Does anyone have any advice on how to write a satisfying Code for this game?  We're trying to figure out how to this.  It sounds like the Code has to be ornerous enough to make the characters fundamentalists of some kind, but kindhearted enough to show that they're good guys (maybe too good).  Yet also the rules have to be made with an eye toward being broken.

Any suggestions?

A couple of points I came up with:

* The Code has to drive the Paladin into action.  The Paladin shouldn't be able to look at some morally-charged situation, say 'meh', and just walk away.  This is an issue that concerns both the player and the GM, I think.

* The Code has interesting interactions with the Paladin's powers.  There's a lot of play, I think, in creating a Code whereby the use of the Paladin's more extreme powers (or any of his powers, really) puts him in opposition to his own code, directly or indirectly.

Also, a lot of people seem to have come up with Codes that are morally ambiguous, internally ambiguous or inconsistent, or both.  Introducing that sort of tension could be fun because, while you'd certainly end up with a bunch of fundamentalist powerhouses, they'd all be fundamentalist in slightly different and possibly opposing ways.

-j

edit:  is it just me, or does running a Paladin game seem like a lot of work for a GM?

Okay, let me see if I can restart this thing.

Here is the Code as we have it now:

QuoteUnbreakable Laws:

You shall protect the Gnosis, keeping it secret from the Minions and Corruption of Jaldabaoth, the Demi-urge, even unto the cost of your own life.

Major Laws:

There are those throughout the world of the Demi-urge who have been freed from the lie that is the Creation of the Half-Maker, those in whom the spark that is the Light of the Pleroma has been given form. These you shall protect, even unto the cost of your own life.

You shall suffer no minion of Jaldabaoth, the Demi-urge, the Half-Maker, Son of Chaos, to live.

Minor Laws:

You shall work always to bring the Light of the True God to the varied peoples of the Earth.

You shall resist the corruption of the Demi-urge in all of it's forms.

You shall own no property, save that which is given unto you in the pursuit of Gnosis and in the effort to protect it.

Concrete questions:

Does this sound like a good Code for a Paladin game?

Do these laws look to reliably force the Paladins into action?

Do you guys think these will produce angsty, morally-challenge Paladins or the kind of fire-eating Fundamentalists that seem to be the "default" archtype for characters in this game?

Not-so-concrete questions:

How do you think these can be improved?  What's missing?  What do you like/dislike about it?

In case you haven't seen me spamming the forums with posts about this game lately ;), the setting, etc, thread is here.

As someone who has actually run Paladin (if only briefly), I have been giving a lot of consideration to the question of what makes a good code and how to make a good code.


Now there are two ways of creating a code. Bottom-up, which in my nomenclature consists of creating a set of rules instantiating an abstract idea and then trying to figure out what kind of conflicts it might create. This seems to be the method you have chosen, "What kind of code would gnostics have ?".

This method has a problem, in that it is possibe to derive many different statements of a code that fit an abstraction but do not necessarily create gameable conflicts.

This is why I prefer the top down method, first figure out what kind of conflicts you want to be important in the game.then look at the abstraction and figure out how it will create that kind of conflict.

The advantage of the top down method is that will inherently create gameable conflicts.

Now looking at Paladin codes I have noticed 3 kinds of conflicts, codes create, conflicts between the outside world and the code and conflicts between elements of the code itself, and conflicts between the character's powers and the code. (The last type has already been mentioned)
And finally the role of ambiguity, Ambiguity should be used to create conflicts not as a tool for characters to avoid conflicts.

Finally as has already been mentioned a good code is based on what the character's should DO not on what they should avoid......

Now lets look at your Gnosic code and see what we got....

Unbreakable Laws:

You shall protect the Gnosis, keeping it secret from the Minions and Corruption of Jaldabaoth, the Demi-urge, even unto the cost of your own life.

It's not clear to me how this will  necessarily create conflicts. It would seem to me that it's always to the advantage of the players to keep their work secret from the other side.  Under what circumstances would they be tempted to violate this code?

Major Laws:

There are those throughout the world of the Demi-urge who have been freed from the lie that is the Creation of the Half-Maker, those in whom the spark that is the Light of the Pleroma has been given form. These you shall protect, even unto the cost of your own life.

You shall suffer no minion of Jaldabaoth, the Demi-urge, the Half-Maker, Son of Chaos, to live.

Now these are good code elements, they naturally create conflict with the outside world. Not only with the minions but with the mudane world as well , the larger society won't look kindly on wanton murder of minions, particularly well placed ones.

Minor Laws:

You shall work always to bring the Light of the True God to the varied peoples of the Earth.

What exactly does this mean? Can the character's discharge this duty by handing out the equivalent of Chick pamphlets? Are they actively being persecuted for doing so?  This would seem to be an example of BAD ambiguity


You shall resist the corruption of the Demi-urge in all of it's forms.

You shall own no property, save that which is given unto you in the pursuit of Gnosis and in the effort to protect it.

The former is another example of bad ambiguity.  What specifically does it mean to avoid the Demiurge's corruption? Again this stricture isn't focused on what the character's should be DOING.  And if the character's work for an organization that meets their needs, why should they NEED property?  While this may be a problem for the characters it isn't necessaryily a problem that will cro in in the play of the game.

I'm considering applying for the role of GM in your game.  I would enjoy discussing the matter through some other channel.

Hey, thanks for the reply, lots of great advice in there.  Here's my thoughts:

QuoteIt's not clear to me how this will necessarily create conflicts. It would seem to me that it's always to the advantage of the players to keep their work secret from the other side. Under what circumstances would they be tempted to violate this code?

Well, this one is actually a little non-obvious.  As I understand it, this has two facets:

1.  Keep secret from the agents of the Demiurge.  This obviously means the Church and agents thereof, but this is a society dominated by the Church and State, so really anybody could be an agent.

2.  As an extension, the Demiurge is at least partially omniscient, and will notice the use of Gnosis.  The more powerful the use, the easier it is to notice.  We've purposely set the powerlevel of Gnosis use for the Paladins pretty low, but it's possible they're capable of much more extreme effects, but doing so would alert the Demiurge, which would be a bad thing for a couple of reasons:  first, he'd alert is agents in the Church (who would alert the Order of St. Jerome stormtroopers to come and kill us) - remember that the Demiurge is deity who is playing an active role in the world, he will let his minions know what is going on. and second, in extreme cases, he might react himself, with unknown consequences.

All that being said, however, I see what you mean.  I'm just not sure what a good Unbreakable law would be in this case.

QuoteWhat exactly does this mean? Can the character's discharge this duty by handing out the equivalent of Chick pamphlets? Are they actively being persecuted for doing so? This would seem to be an example of BAD ambiguity

First:  Chick pamplets?  There's got to be a good Paladin game in that somewhere...

Anyway, I dunno about this one.  I think the idea was that people have to be "awakened" through some use of Gnosis?  and then they could seek Gnosis on their own?  I dunno.

QuoteThe former is another example of bad ambiguity. What specifically does it mean to avoid the Demiurge's corruption?

This one could mean any number of things, if interpreted creatively.  Sexual contact is definitely out.  So are other Earthly pleasures like drinking, etc.  Interestingly enough, Codes and Laws are also supposed to be out, since they are seen as constructs of the Demiurge.  Really thise could probably be interpreted to mean almost anything.

Any suggestions on how we could restate or improve this one?  So far, we have two pretty good Major Laws, but we're zero-for-two on the Unbreakable and Minor ones.

-joshua[/code]

Quote from: James_NostackIt sounds like the Code has to be ornerous enough to make the characters fundamentalists of some kind, but kindhearted enough to show that they're good guys (maybe too good).

Really? I must have missed the "good guys" part, as my attempts clearly put the players in the "unpalatable by modern standards" camp.

For instance (adapted from a RPGnet discussion):

************************************************************

The Secret is the mysterious institution in which select young citizens roamed the country, living off the land and secretely killing serfs that dared to think themselves equal to their masters.

Unbreakable Law
----------------------

Enforce the order of the City

Major Laws
--------------

Never shy from danger
Shun cowards


Minor Laws
--------------

Obey the Gods, the Judges and the King
Don't reveal the existence of the Secret
Never betray a peer

***********************************************************

Is it playable in the spirit of the game?