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Any news on a print edition of Trollbabe? I've been very satisfied with the quality and value of the other Adept Press releases.

Pre-orders maybe?

Hi Larry,

I'd indefinitely shelved Trollbabe, as well as Demon Cops, for print editions.

From a game publishing standpoint, that's silly - the company needs a new hard-copy release every so often, and user interest in both is very high. I've even marked up both documents extensively, bringing Trollbabe up to the standards of, say, Dogs in the Vineyard (the games are very similar) and using Demon Cops as a venue for discussing how Bangs, Kicker, and Back-story are utilized in moment-to-moment decisions and interactions during play. So I think both would be profitable and useful.

So why not? Because I'm venturing into a very risky, very ambitious project. It's technically not part of the hobby, and by definition incompatible with the so-called "industry." It's why I've been reading espionage stuff (fiction, non-fiction, etc) for six months solid, and why I'll be traveling to Berlin in December. I'm planning on launching a new website which isn't really going to be connected to role-playing material except in one small corner, perhaps by July.

The project (working title is SPIONE: STORY NOW IN COLD WAR BERLIN) is taking all my time and effort, and bluntly, I'm kind of tired of writing for gamers. There is now a whole crew of people who literally didn't exist, professionally speaking, before the Forge started up, and this crew is damn good at it. Capes, Universalis, My Life with Master, Shadow of Yesterday, Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, etc ... the so-called "industry" continues to flail around in its little clubhouse of debt, but now there's a real industry where there wasn't before. Real role-playing exists as a business now, and in some ways, I have a very strong "My work here is done" sensation about it. What can I contribute with Demon Cops and Trollbabe? Not much. Especially not when SPIONE is a major effort and every day lost is a real setback.

On the other hand, the recent Meatbot Massacre discussion warms my profiteering, money-loving heart. Should I step back to Trollbabe and brush it up? After all, the notes and corrections are written. I even have a few more illustrations already. More than one person has offered to do the layout. Publishing through Lulu or similar companies is easy as pie. And if I do the "buy in" tactic, it'll make me feel good along the way. H'mmmm.

I'm not sure.

Best,
Ron

Wow.

You know, once I've pegged you as the "Innovative, but more down-to-earth compared to the newcomers" guy, you do something that just knocks me off my feet. SPIONE? Cold war Berlin? Espionage? Divergent from the hobby in a way moreso than Univeralis? 6 Months and a trip to Europe research?

I really have no fucking clue what you're planning, and its really exhilirating.

I can understand your sentiment about the hobby. I have a lot of definite baggage with roleplaying, that's always been a major force in spurning me on with a sense of "I can do so much better." or just draining my energy "Gawd, no matter what it is they're just going to say 'I swing at it!'", And I must have 1/10th of Ron's expiereince in much fewer aspects of the hobby.

I personally think that Demon Cops and Trollbabe have some very valuable stuff within them, and for me they're in the perfect package for the "Liked-roleplaying-but-was-left-unsatisfied." crowd, for their comparitive traditional set up compared to Capes/Univeralis/MlwM etc. Of course, this is offset with the fact that I really want to run them and having a print/updated version of them would be a really sweet deal.

But hey, tell us more about that project, does it have anything to do with some sort of advancement of Narrativism? Is it within the collabortive fiction idea? What form will the product be in?

Hello Ron,

Quote from: Ron EdwardsThe project (working title is SPIONE: STORY NOW IN COLD WAR BERLIN) is taking all my time and effort, and bluntly, I'm kind of tired of writing for gamers.

If you meant that the way I think you meant that, then I completely understand.

Your project title includes the phrase "Story Now" and yet you say it's wholey outside the hobby.  I'm very curious.  You mentioned sometime ago that you were burying yourself in espionage literature and I assumed that meant you were planing on releasing a salable version of "Zero to the Bone."  But it seems that this is much larger than that.

I'm disappointed about the shelving of printed Trollbabe.  Your printed version of Elfs was such an improvement over the .pdf I was looking forward to a similar upgrade for Trollbabe.

Jesse

Hi Jesse,

Actually, I feel the same way about the print copy for Trollbabe. Let's leave the discussion of Spione for now, and talk about that (it's the thread topic, after all).

1. Timing - could I get it out in time for GenCon? Answer: almost certainly.

2. Cost - can I afford it? Answer: absolutely.

3. Marketing - should I pull an "invest in Trollbabe" scheme along the lines of Meatbot Massacre? Answer: h'mmm, maybe. I don't think I'd do the "free after that" though, which is awesome for MM, not so much for Trollbabe, I think (especially not hard copy).

4. Format - should it be a PDF/print combo like My Life with Master? Answer: yes. I should have done this with Elfs too.

5. Problem - will publishing a new version of Trollbabe interfere with the crucial Spione project? Answer: yes. The real question is, will it unacceptably interfere? Answer: not if you guys help out.

I'll need:

- awesome, unproblematic layout in which the person who does it obeys me unquestioningly, and without "fixing" it. Trollbabe should not look like an RPG; efficiency in packing words onto a page is absolutely counter-productive.

- indexing and table-of-contenting without hassles. So far, every single book I've done has been a nightmare for this, except Sex & Sorcery (that was Michael Miller's doing).

- critical reading and proofing, from people who know what I'm after and can help realize that vision without bringing in fix-its for the Sim-by-habit crowd.

- a bit more art. That's a real time sink if I'm not careful.

But hey ... I'm starting to be convinced. Thoughts, help, suggestions?

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

I absolutely love TB, and would also love to see hit print.  I'd be willing to break out my old ink and brush, brush up my drawing skills again and donate art on top of all that to help it happen.

Chris

First: I like Trollbabe from reading it, but it's true that the game is starting to feel a little dated (or rather, unfinished, perhaps?) as compared to the latest batch of similar designs. Mechanics-wise, that is - the color is top-notch, and unparalleled in the genre of fantasy-for-beginners. (Perhaps I'd like to see just a little bit more of the world as GM inspiration, but the comics do that job quite well...)

Thus, I'd like to see a new version, too. Here's what I've got:

Quote from: Ron Edwards
- awesome, unproblematic layout in which the person who does it obeys me unquestioningly, and without "fixing" it. Trollbabe should not look like an RPG; efficiency in packing words onto a page is absolutely counter-productive.

Well, I can certainly do layout, and wouldn't have a problem with spending time with it this spring. I'm working with QuarkXPress, mainly, if that matters. If you saw our MLwM translation, I did the layout, warts and all.

Quote
- indexing and table-of-contenting without hassles. So far, every single book I've done has been a nightmare for this, except Sex & Sorcery (that was Michael Miller's doing).

More detail. What kind of files you're working with? Are you thinking of doing the index and TOC yourself, or outsourcing it? What kind of programs you're willing to work with (Word, some markup language or what)? What kind of problems have you had, specifically?

My take on this issue depends on the above points.

Quote
- a bit more art. That's a real time sink if I'm not careful.

I know a bunch of artists, certainly... let's see some more detail, and if you really decide to do it, we can see...

Hey Ron,

4. Format - should it be a PDF/print combo like My Life with Master? Answer: yes. I should have done this with Elfs too.

You saw the http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=14522">conversation about my financial chart? Ralph's data suggests that he's suffered no loss of sales relative to MLwM for not having a pdf version of Universalis.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I did see the chart, but I'm dubious about that particular conclusion - at least about how it might apply to Trollbabe. This game has really strong international sales and a lot of people tend not to want to pay for shipping across the seven seas. They seem to appreciate the PDF download greatly.

Also, I'm thinking that my default approach to PDF/print might be that the person simply buys the game, period, and gets both. If they want just the PDF, then that becomes sort of an add-on (subtract-off?) option. But I don't think I'll offer them as two distinct products, each with its own price.

Best,
Ron

OK, I'm about 95% convinced to go forward with the Trollbabe project. Not all my decisions are over, but here's what I'll need ...

Say, twenty more illustrations. Maybe some of the comics illustrators might be interested.

A layout guy, who also understands how to format the cover and all that stuff (very colorful, not easy). And a separate index guy. Readers, proofers, bitchers.

I've already received multiple messages and offers which lead me to believe all of the above are available.

Oh yeah! And a commitment to actual play over the next month or two. Everyone should go and play a ton of Trollbabe right now, using the revised Social rules (e.g. Tha's number is 3, hence her Magic is 4-10, her Fighting is 1-2, and her Social is 1-3 ... not 3-10). Find out everything that's right or wrong with it, and post like demons.

The investment plan - specifically and only for paying all the helpers! See how it works? Either you help (e.g. draw a picture, etc), or you toss in some money to pay the helper.

That means the next step is setting the freelancer budget, which means finding out how much people are going to need to be paid (need, not want, you greedy fucks). I can post that amount and people can see how they're helping the whole thing happen.

What kind of payoff for the donators? I'm tempted to say, without you it wouldn't happen, so give yourselves a gold star, but that would suck ... and free copies of the final book are counterproductive, you don't give product to the fan base, that's moronic. So h'm. Something though.

I'll of course foot the bill for printing and everything else. I figure I'll handle all the commerce through Indie Press Revolution, since they've done a great job with Elfs and Sorcerer books so far.

This could happen! Thoughts, suggestions, ideas?

Best,
Ron

I am really more interested in seeing a nice printed edition of Trollbabe because I think it is a unique work that can appeal to non-gamers (especially women) and mature, open-minded gamers. The sort of thing I'd like to have lying on my coffee table. Ron Edwards has a serious talent for presenting gender issues in a way that is neither dry nor overly academic, and Trollbabe seems like a nice, nonthreatening way to entice certain people to consider certain ideas that they otherwise wouldn't.

Sex & Sorcerer is great, but it's still really a product for gamers. Trollbabe gets my nod as a product that could have a broader appeal than the usual nerd ghetto. And PDFs and laser-printed copies just reek of geek fetish.

I am less interested in Trollbabe for the mechanics or any other gamer-ly goodness. I mean, I am interested in those things, but they aren't anything I can't already glean from the PDF. Similarly, while a Demon Cops redux with a whole new batch of Ron's juicy gaming tips would be pretty neat, if resources are so pressed that the release of even one of these is a maybe, I'll cheer for Trollbabe.

Besides, you did a print edition of Elfs. Don't tell me you're more proud of Elfs than Trollbabe.


As far as what I can do, I, uh, can proof like nobody's business.

Hi Larry,

Well, you're certainly nailing the design/theme goals for the game, as well as my own personal vision for what it would be like as a physical and social object.

Trollbabe sits on coffee table. Male guest idly leafs through it. Other guest, his wife, makes "suspicious cheerleader" face, then sees illustration by, say, Rod Anderson and gets the "neutral interest" look instead. Dinner, socializing proceed, talk centers on mutual acquaintances and the Oscars ... wife is spotted shortly thereafter leafing through Trollbabe, and she asks, "What is this? Is it like a game of some kind?"

I'm fairly comfortable with the presentation of those goals through the actual content of the text and illustrations, but if you have any interest in improving it from that angle, then let me know.

Best,
Ron

P.S. If you haven't already, check out Trollbabe, feminism, and the chain mail bikini.

Ron, as the guy who did the current layout for Trollbabe, I've got to point out some concerns.

I know your vision for the game. I also know your vision wasn't fulfilled as you'd hoped.

That's because I had a very difficult time mimicking, say, artbooks because the text is linear and connected.

Art books work because each page of content speaks for itself. I was never satisfied with Trollbabe's layout because pages 12-17 (or whatever) could not stand on their own with an illustration. The text -- the content and the amount of the letters themselves -- resists.

Artbooks of the kind that inspired you have the wonder of space and brevity of parceled content. The Trollbabe text would have to be hammered and beaten into each of those layouts in an extremely clever way.

I'm saying: Round peg, square hole. The content you have and the form you want it in are in many ways incompatible. Very difficult layout, I think. Thought so then, too! It was the most difficult vision I was presented with as a layout guy doing indie games. But, also, some of the best vision and direction.

So, I'd consider working on it with you. But, that's up to you, too. Whoever does it will have to do some serious consideration of content and form. It isn't about capturing the beauty of those awesome art books. It's about understanding and presenting the content in new, special and unique way. Good luck on the poor bastard.

Hello,

Actually, Matt, the PDF layout works well. I don't have major concerns with it and don't consider you to have failed.

Tell me more about the parcelling. I don't think I quite get it; the art books I'm thinking of had a lot of essay and interview text that went from page to page.

Best,
Ron

RE: "maybe some of the comic artists would be interested"

I'm in.

Ron may remember my first contact with him was an email expressing my disappointment that I had discovered Trollbabe too late to have contributed artwork to it, and he followed up with the offer to do one of the comics.  So I'd jump at the chance to help with the rulebook.