The Forge Archives

Ever since finishing InSpectres, I've had a bunch of sales...which is great! :)

I've also taken some hit in the criticism department. The standard mantra seems to be "It's too much for a 40 page PDF."

On one hand, I don't really care. I know it's good...I know it's worth at least what I'm charging ($10). But there really is a strong feeling of PDFs being low quality compared to print versions (alas, references to the Imagine Player's Guide, Multiverser, Synnibar, et al would fall on deaf ears).

So should I care? If someone wants a game, they'll buy it (witness the newly unemployed me spending $70 yesterday on RPGs...yikes!). But I still have those guilty pangs about being the Free Game Guy for the past 5 years...and now I'm charging.

Huh.

Two things.

Firstly, PDFs are a matter of taste.  Some people will never like them.  Others, including myself, see them as perfectly acceptable and a sensible way of bringing a small press game to market.  You will appeal to the second lot and never to the first, so it goes.

Secondly, what you are charging for is better than what you gave away for free.  Your free stuff was good, but the stuff you are doing now is better.  The time you have spent designing and knocking ideas about over the last 5 years shows.  You are entitled to charge for that.

I intend to buy a copy of Octane and of Inspectres.  Why?  Because they are worth (more than) what you charge for them and I will have fun with them.  What could possibly be wrong with that?  I get good games.  You get a, frankly very small, bit of money and you get to know that I value your work enough to pay for it.  Downloading is easy.  When someone pays you know they want what you've done.

Does that make any sense?

Wow, so much for my contrast between Jared and Dav in the RPG Theory thread ...

Anyway, let's not forget something - as long as you make the size of the game clear prior to someone hitting the Buy button, then you're golden. No one can tell you what to charge for the game; they can only choose to buy or not to buy.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsWow, so much for my contrast between Jared and Dav in the RPG Theory thread ...

Anyway, let's not forget something - as long as you make the size of the game clear prior to someone hitting the Buy button, then you're golden. No one can tell you what to charge for the game; they can only choose to

Ah, I'm still not interested in what "the market will bear" or any of the stuff that Dav (that soulless capitalist!) is interested in. ;)

I guess I just want a pat on the head, some warm milk and a "There, there...everything will be okay." Normally, Rebecca would provide these but she's in Paris.

*sigh*

Here's your pat:

It's 40 pages. 40 pages of not-large text. With normal margins, not game-book-I-could-play-tennis-on-this margins. Without art.

Man, that's more text than you'll find in the average d20 supplement that runs $15-20.

And personally, I could care less about having a print version - I like to be able to put everything for a game, including supplements, errata, character sheets and what not, in a three-ring binder.

If you ask me, $10 is too cheap. (Although I'll admit I'm weird, and $10 is about all anyone will pay for a PDF.)

Fuck 'em Jared.

Seriously, I said before in the thread on game pricing that most games would sell just as well with a higher price on them.

1) Anyone who doesn't want to spend $10 on a game isn't a gamer.  $10 is 2 trips to McDonalds.  $10 is 1 movie ticket and maybe a small soda...maybe...  $10 is a cheap T-shirt off the discount rack, or a preowned DVD.

2) If they're rating value by quantity as opposed to quality they probably aren't the demographic you're going for anyway.

If Inspectres sucks, I'll feel it was $10 wasted.  If it kix ass then its money well spent whether its 40 pages or 4.

Here is another way around the issue:

Say I release my Eldritch Ass Kicking in 40 page glory w/ artwork, w/ rules, w/character sheet, w/starting adventure, w/multi-platform character generator..... heh

And I charge $5 for it.... Am I going to screw up Jared's success? Am I going to mess with the market? Am I going to make it so that people will want to pay less for PDFs?

heck, if i know...

I say stick it at $10 Jared.

Although, do you have any banged or dented copies you might let go for half price? :)

Thanks,
Nathan
the Cheap One

Quote from: Clinton R NixonAnd personally, I could care less about having a print version - I like to be able to put everything for a game, including supplements, errata, character sheets and what not, in a three-ring binder.

What Clinton said.

Actually, I'm looking forward to a day when paper will be a thing of the past. I don't print anything out ever, unless I absolutely have to. I want all my books to be online someday. There are so many advantages to me that I don't even know where to start. Eventually, I want to just be able to get my holographic display to just pop up the page I'm looking for with voice recognition. This is not sci-fi.

So you're just riding the wave of the future. And, FWIW, PDF is the most print friendly thing out there. So if someone does want to print, well they can, easily.

And one more thing. You are losing money on copies that are bieng distributed to people who haven't paid. Sure nobody you ask will admit that this happens, but it's an unfortunate side effect of pubhlishing in such a manner. So part of the cost you have put in there is going to covering the loss of business due to this sort of theft. Or if you see it as ligitimate, then it is a liscensing fee. And a damn chep one at that.

Like Ralph said, think people can get more than three video rentals worth of entertainment out of their copy? I do. Heck you'd probably get more in the first play.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesAnd one more thing. You are losing money on copies that are bieng distributed to people who haven't paid. Sure nobody you ask will admit that this happens, but it's an unfortunate side effect of pubhlishing in such a manner. So part of the cost you have put in there is going to covering the loss of business due to this sort of theft. Or if you see it as ligitimate, then it is a liscensing fee. And a damn chep one at that.

The ironic thing is that the people who would be guaranteed customers are the folks who got free copies for playing the game at GenCon. :)

But anyway, I will be toting some printed versions to bring to game cons (including GenCon). These will be $10 as well, so one hand is washing the other (so to speak).

Jared,

It is very difficult to put a price on creative works, especially for the creator.  This is all the more true with a small press product.  Without art, printing, distribution, staff, etc. coming into play all you have to judge is the material you wrote.  

If you want to feel better do this equation (pat on the head):
The total amount of income you generate selling this product divided by the number of hours you worked on conceptualizing, writing, testing and outputting this product.
If you sell 50 of these products (which may be relatively high) and worked on this project for months or years you will probably be making less than $1 an hour.  In other words, forget about the people who tell you its too much.  Your time and creative energy is very valuable. (everything is going to be just fine)

Reality Check
Your game = $10 (Good for many night of multiple friends' enjoyment)
1 New York City Movie Ticket = $10 (Good for 2-3 hours of enjoyment)
1 Large paperback book =$10 (Good for a few days of enjoyment)
1 or 2 six packs = $10 (Good for a night of enjoyment)
$10 Hooker = $10 (Nevermind, you get the picture)

I paid my $10 yesterday, downloaded this morning and glanced through it feeling like I got my money's worth.  

After shelling out $74 earlier this week for CoC d20 and the WtA Storyteller's Guide, and flipping through Godlike and putting it aside because it would tip the balance over $100, after paying $26+ s/h for a used copy of Castle Falkenstein and then waiting impatiently for 4 weeks for it to arrive, after printing out The Window and weeping because of the useless art design wasting major ink......  

...  I was more than happy with the mere $10 Inspectres cost, for what it offered in terms of "meat".

$5 for a PDF was reasonable when hardcovers where $20-$30 + tax.   $8-$10 is reasonable when hardcovers are $25-$35 + tax.

Jared,

Here () are some virtual cookies and milk. And here () is a nice pat on the back. :) InSpectres rules, it's well worth ten bucks. Like everyone else has said, we've all bought 'published' games that have cost a lot more and delivered a lot less (my most recent flub was SLA Industries). I would have bought one if you would have sent me an 'ad' for it rather than my 'playtest copy', even with writing Geek Season w/ Mike...

Anyone who whines about the $10 has obviously not thought about it before shooting their yap off... Like you see in all the other posts, $10 is worth about a meal, movie, or paperback, and IS provides as much entertainment as any of these.

When are the InSpectres t-shirts going to be printed??? :)
Sean

I was planning on sending friends to buy copies (still am, but it will be a few months yet as I'm going to run a game or two for them first, and then wait till they ask me where I got this cool game--and tell them)

Jared,

I haven't bought your stuff yet.  Tight budget at the moment, etc., ad whinyum.  I'm one who has downloaded MUCH of what you've offered on your site and enjoyed it very much.  Ten bucks is a bargain for a Memento-Mori game in ROUGH form, let alone a polished PDF format.  Let the guilt go.  Enjoy the benefits of being a professional game designer.

When's the PDF version of eight going up, anyway?  My fingers might skitter into my wallet for that one, budgetary constraints or no.

Best,

Blake

Thanks everyone. Fragile psyche...healed! Oh, and I found my sunglasses. Life is good.

It's funny. Now that my first major game is out the door, I'm feeling more confident that yes, I CAN do some more games and sell them.

octaNe is next (and I'll hopefully have several treats to go along it)...!