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Okay,

Here's my one problem with Sorcerer and her sister books:

I don't care about the demon powers.

Lets say a demon showed up tomorrow and said, "Feed my needs and desires and I'll allow you to move really fast, sneak around in shodows, and turn bullet damage into damage more like a punch -- and I'll show up on command and spit a fine mist of acid into those faces of you loathe."  I'd think a beat, and then say, "Um.  No."

But, let's say a demon showed up and said, "Let me bugger you whenever I wish, most often at inopportune times, so that you eventually fall away from all other human contact for your strange behavior and anxiety, but I'll allow you to paint with such ability that no one will be able to resist purchasing your work at whatever price you wish." I'd pause a beat and say, "Sure."

(And welcome to my freakishness, by the way.)

See, the demon powers, as they stand, simply don't turn me on.  For the most part they're kind of fan-boy-wish fulfillment stuff; the ability to be as cool as a video game character.  But I've never thought video game characters were that cool.

Now, in the review of Charnel Gods, it was noted that the fell weapons can confer high dice Pasts, and *that* seems cool.  In my example above, a demon confering Artisan 7 on a character in return for taking the road to hell is a story point I buy.  That's the kind of story I'm interested in.

With that as an option, it suddenly occurs to me you could mix and match lots of abilities and powers and make "superpowers" out of almost anything.  And with that, by heart is racing in an eroticized-narrativist frenzy cause I can see almost anyone being tempted by some creature at some point.

I'm not suggesting removing the Powers as written.  I could see a warrior in Zatalan being quite interested in handling martial matters better than mere mortals.

So, some questions:

Am I Missing Something?
As the Powers stand right now in the Sorcerer rulebook, am constraining myself by an interpretation of the Powers that doesn't exist?  If so, what am I missing?  I appreciate that this all could have been in my face before, and I just have never seen it.

Am I Missing Something Part II?
Is there a reason that most of the Powers are combat or stealth based?  Is there something about using demon abilities to interact violently (for the most part) with other characters that is simply going to work better than, say, conferring powered up Pasts.  For examle, without the Artisan pump-up, a man with a bound demon might go off and kill some artist and steal his work and pass it off as his own.  (A narrative bit of business that has, again, little place in my heart.)

How Did Scott Do It?
I think this is the one reason I was interested in getting Charnel Gods for my Zatalan game.  I really want to expand what demons have to offer, and this game sounds like it does exactly that.

Thanks for any replies.

Christopher

Hi there,

I think you are limiting yourself in some ways. It probably has to do more with my assumption, at the time of writing, that any role-player who'd picked up the book would probably be a veteran of Narrativist Champions. Looking back to six or seven years ago, I don't think I'd have imagined anyone besides such a person even thinking of playing Sorcerer.

To my way of thinking, "abilities" are mechanics-components of some desired effect, rather than compartmentalized things. A typical demon "service" in my mind would include something like showing people what others really think of them (with the potential to be lying) - a combination of Perception (probably bought twice, once for the "thing" and once for the range/scope) and possibly Hint. Daze and Confuse can be combined with versions of Travel and Shapeshift to set up some pretty amazing effects as well. I've always thought that Cover (or Past, in 'Sword) would be practically a default demon ability, especially the sort that confers to another person rather than to the demon.

Think of a demon that permits a person to generate astonishing orgasms in his or her sexual partner, associated with shapeshifting both people involved. Or of one which attacks a target's unconscious with dreams of his or her cherished dead (if any), influencing the target's waking policies. Or of one which, as Nev suggests in another thread, visits unspeakable harm on other, nearby people as a form of "transferring" potential harm away from its master. Or a weapon which does horrific damage, but only to someone who tries to wield it inappropriately (rather than just "to opponents") ... which means you don't attack people with it, you give it to them in subtle ways and simply wait.

Check out Stephanie Blazer, the Passing demon in Demon Cops - the ultimate manipulative secretary whose Psychic Blast is combined with Cloak ... so people just feel dozy around her, permitting her to pick up the work-slack and basically make them rely on her.

Best,
Ron

I always considered abilities to be generic little bundles of mechanics- interpret them as you will.  With Perceptino and Psyichic blast, your demon can read a victim's most horrific secret, and when you (or it) utters it to them, it sends their mind reeling.  For even more fun, use Taint instead for really soul-destroying secrets.  

Boost covers tons of things... but for your art....

You have a very powerful demon with Spawn, Perception, Taint, and Warp.  It spawns paintings (with your creative energies being what it Needs).  The spawn then Percieves what a potential viewer wants most in a painting- or what they subconsciously need and desire- then it Taints the hell out of them to lower their resistance to acting on base desires and impulses, and finally Warps itself to highlight the features the person looks for in art and needs subconsciously, bringing certain features and facets to the fore while pushing others back.

Add Link to the mix, and you have a demonic spy hanging on the wall of someone's home.


There is a really great Clive Barker story which was made into a terrible terrible movie.  The Last Illusion (mutilated into The Lord of Illusions) is about a person who has sold his soul for real magica power... the power to work miracles.  Only he comes to realize magic is just a distraction from what is really importiant- the buisness of being human and living your life.  This is the ultamate F-You in Sorcerer: you trade your esential humanity for neat magic tricks which don't fundamentally make your life better or your spirit lighter.  Just the oposite.  I think realizing this should play a role in any darker-hued sorcerer game.

-Ben

There are lighter-hued sorceror games?!?!  ; )

Okay,

I'm getting it now.

Actually, I did play Hero System games... Though not much Champions.  (More Justice, Inc. (God I loved playing that), as well as space opera and such variations.)  

I played with guys who seemed to have taken degrees in the system. Whenever I said something like, "I'd like my guy to do something like this," they'd pick up a pencil and start scribbling away.  "Well, you'd probably want to combine this for this dice..." and then they'd write it all out really fast.

In other words, I never really learned to *think* this way.

So, if anyone else has anything they want to add, I certainly appreciate it.

Christopher,

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5571

It's pretty much me ripping Sorcerer's text to shreds on this very issue.

What it comes down to is that Ron has a very unique writing style for RPG presentation.  What he DOESN'T say is often just as important as what he does say.  With Sorcerer, Trollbabe and Elfs I've, at least once, had the experience of thinking about something that struck me as odd or not quite right for the game and then going back to check the text and discovering whole sentences that I could have sworn were there weren't.  I constantly discover that what the text says, and what my brain naturally extrapolates from it aren't the same thing.

So, the key to thinking about Demon Powers, I think, is to see what the litteral mechanical effect of that power is.  Then think of all the things that effect COULD represent.  Then tack on other powers to complete the effect.

Examples:

Cloak reads, "The demon's Power is subtracted from the Perception dice of anyone who might perceive the user."

Most people I have played Sorcerer with go, "Oh, invisibility" and move on.  Um, that's not what it says.  It's just a mechanical effect.  It doesn't say anything about what the user is doing or what is not being perceived.

Cover reads, "The user is proficient at any skills associated with a given profession or social status, using dice equal to the demon's Power."

Here's your artisan power.  Salt with Hint for that guy who always seems to be able to churn out a painting that speaks to you on such a personal level.

Here's one that's nearly always skipped by without thinking it through:

Psychic Force, in part, reads, "The user may use his or her Will as a ranged attack, doing damage on the Fists column."

Again, most people just think of some kind of blasting mental attack that sends their opponent flying across the room or wracked with pain from an unseen source.  But again, that's NOT what it says.

Remember that damage is ALWAYS applied to ALL scores, thus "damage" can be represented by ANYTHING.  So take this ability plus Perception plus Hint and you've just become a walking nightmare factory.  So, here you are implanting the most horrible and depressing thoughts into a person's head.  Damage represents him sinking further and further into depression.  At double his Stamina in lasting damage he just can't take it anymore and throws himself off a ten story building, an apparent suicide.

I totally agree with you that the initial reading of the Powers brings to mind all kinds of hyper kinetic kung-fu with lots of flashy special effects.  It seems at first glance that people who want subtler demons who seduce, who persuade, who charm, who grant gifits of hedonistic pleasure, and so forth are left out in the cold because of the infamous lack of "mind control" powers.

How can a demon makes me the greatest lover in the world if there isn't a charm power?

I think it can be done.  It's just a matter of fulling realizing that seperation between litteral mechanical effect and in world represention of that effect.  That could mean adding up a bunch of individual mechanical effects from multiple powers and then thinking about, perhaps, a single in world representation for those stacked mechanical effects.

Hope that helps.

Jesse

I don't have a whole lot to add, except to reiterate what others have said.  

In Charnel Gods, the Fell Weapons are often very straightforward.  I exploited Perception (and to a lesser extent Cover), tied-in with their Needs and Desires, to give each a "theme", so to speak.  Thus you get Periffon, who lets you manipulate people with ease, but who is also a gossip-monger and a teller-of-lies.  Or Cebbeline, who gives you the Spy Cover and enhanced hearing, but who is also a betrayer and a teller-of-secrets.

For the record, I think Perception + Cover is an easy and powerful combo, particularly when you take into account that successes from a Perception roll can often be rolled into an immediate subsequent Cover roll.  Give your artist an "eye for detail" as well as the appropriate Cover and go to town (and that Perception ability will come in handy at other times as well).

- Scott

Heh, I think Jesse beat me to it.

In Josh's Sorcerer game, Julie's character has a demon who's power is Cover: Comics Artist. She's got the same Cover, too, only at a level or two less. The Demon is the ghost of her character's father, who the character is trying to emulate, and whoch has come bck to teach her. Did I mention that he was a murderer as well?

For this slight increase in ability, she's already been goaded by the demon into attacking her foster parents.

Very much what you're looking for.

Here's a fun idea. People should toss out challenges for abilities that they are having a hard time thinking about how to create with Sorcerer, or just think would be interesting. Then others can propose methods of making those abilities. New thread?

Best lover? Just get a demon with a large Power score, and a big boost to Stamina. Gotta be a Stamina roll, right? Seems pretty easy to me. Maybe boost Will as well. Or maybe Cover: Lover. No "charm", the character actually becomes the worlds best lover. :-)

BTW, here's how I handle both Champions and Sorcerer. The players never get to see the list of powers. Ask them what they want. Then translate into the best game effects you can. If there's no specific fit, either tell them that this isn't allowed (as in mind control type stuff), or suggest some alternate (like the Stamina Boost).

Mike

Hi Jesse,

Actually, I missed the thread you linked... But by god I'm glad I read it now.

And thanks for the post above.  After reading the preceding posts, then the thread you linked, then your thread, just around your interpretation of the Psychic Force I had a real Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment.

Truly, I was familiar with Champions style bending and folding... but for some reason I didn't click into it here.  As Ron said, here and on the other threads, he made some assumptions when writing the book.  (Who doesn't, when doing anything?)

But now that's been opened up, I just wanna say thanks to everyone who's responed.

The trick, now, I think, for my players and myself, is for me to go through the power and strip out a lot of the descriptions, giving them a more "mechanical" based re-write so my folks can have more fun toying around with this stuff.

(Also, since I'll be running S&Sword, I don't even know if I'm gonna' get any "active" sorcerers at the start, so it'll give me time to play with the powers, lego-block like, behind the curtain.

Again, thanks to all.

Christopher

A personal favorite of mine is Hint+Taint+Psychic Force, particularly when the demon is a book (available in national book stores, as Ron put it) that gives you all the low down on "What should not, must not be known".

Oh wait, that's my personal review of Sorcerer...

Of course those extra sentences were always there, Jesse.  What's wrong, don't look at me like that...

:P

Chris

Hi, Chris.

I struggled with the problem of Muse Demons myself a while back in this thread. I eventually settled on something simple: Boost Cover. The demon needn't even be an artist, just something that inspires artists.