The Forge Archives

Hi,

I initially posted this on rpg.net but on reflection the issues raised may be better addressed here.  To the extent it's relevant, this is phrased from an essentially simulationist standpoint, I think the issues though are just as relevant to narrativist play (though not at all to gamist play).

ORIGINAL POST FOLLOWS

I'm presently reading The Story of my Life by Giacomo Casanova.

For those in the back row, Casanova was an Eighteenth century Venetian who was famous for his romantic exploits, thus giving rise to the term casanova.

Anyway, the book is tremendously well written. Extremely witty and erudite. It's also in places very surprising.

Sex per se forms a relatively small part of the book, despite what people might imagine. But social attitudes of the time are well depicted, if sometimes unconsciously. Some of those attitudes relate to sex in ways which are unexpected (this is heading to a gaming point, don't worry).

Casanova speaks on a couple of occasions about homosexuality, usually in the context of an anecdote where some guy has made a pass at him or he is mentioning that someone is gay. Casanova's view seems to be that homosexuality is not a moral issue, that is to say he sees nothing wrong with it. Indeed, he explicitly condemns the practices of countries which make it illegal or which pour scorn upon homosexuals. He sees such bigotry as essentially barbaric.

The only time Casanova has an issue with someone being gay is when a guy hits on him repeatedly and won't take no for an answer. He isn't bothered by the suggestion he might indulge, he knows his tastes don't run that way, he is rather bothered by the fact he is being pestered by someone he perceives as behaving rudely in not accepting defeat gracefully.

If he were fictional a modern reader would imagine that contemporary PC attitudes were being put onto the character. But this is a memoir written by Casanova himself. The surprising fact then is that an Eighteenth century rake was in fact more tolerant of homosexuality than most people today. Not what most would expect I think.

In another part of the book Casanova sleeps with two sisters on consecutive nights. One aged 11 and the other 12. Casanova is plainly no paedophile, he simply draws no great distinction between a girl of 11 and one of 21. Nor does anyone else in the book draw much distinction, including the girl's mother who knows about the affair. Casanova expresses surprise that a girl that young is interested, but once he knows she is there is no issue that she might be too young. The idea seems literally alien, it simply doesn't even arise.

Now, back then of course modern notions of childhood and adolescence simply didn't exist. You were either a child or an adult and as far as Casanova and everyone else was concerned if she was old enough to be interested she was clearly an adult for those purposes.

This is to modern sensibilities incredibly alien. An 11 year old today is seen as clearly being a child. That someone would make no distinction between her and a 21 or 31 year old makes no sense to the modern mind. He would in fact be arrested.

What struck me with this was quite how different his culture was, even in very basic things. There is no concept of the adolescent, most people know that but the practical implications of that fact are rarely so explicitly set out. In some things he is more modern than we are, in others he behaves in ways most people today view as not just morally repugnant but possibly even as a form of mental illness.

This is just 200 years ago and we're dealing with a Westerner.

Most games essentially have cultures which are America Lite, perhaps The West Lite if you prefer. There are cosmetic changes, people are loyal to a king instead of democracy, to many gods rather than just one, but fundamental moral assumptions of the modern day tend to still hold good. You don't sleep with 12 year olds in a fantasy game and homosexuality is rarely if ever mentioned.

Some try to depart from this. But generally most don't even bother.

Which leads to the issue of what we miss out by not even trying to put ourselves in another culture's heads. Heroic Greek rpgs rarely address the topic of Greek homosexuality. Western games usually try not to include racial attitudes of the day (often by the simple expedient of basically dropping all black people from the game). But these cultures aren't a huge stretch. I've summarised major differences in Casanova's attitudes from contemporary ones in one internet post, it's not impossible to put yourself in his head.

My impression is that most gamers like only cosmetic differences, elves aren't really alien, they're just Americans with pointy ears. But surely one of the great possibilities of roleplaying is exploring what it would be like to live in another time, another place. What's the point if when we go there everyone is just like us?

Well, to kinda work backward, the "point" is escapism for most. The want to be themselves in the body of someone that can kill like Legolas can. For this large percentage, the conflicts that they want to encounter are the safe, sanitized sorts of things that you find in LoTR.

Does this mean that one has to limit oneself to that? Not at all. Are you just calling for more depth in simulating different cultures? If so, I'm with you all the way. It would be good to see more games like that, IMO.

Do I think such games would sell well? No, I don't. I think that the dearth of material of this sort indicates the market forces present to an extent. Basically, most gamers do not share our predilections on this one.

Oh, BTW, careful with the subject material. I can see why this would be dangerous on RPG.net. Has anyone accused you of being a latent pedophile yet? I can see someone making the absurd connection that given the literature in question that you were simply seeking to vicariously satisfy some sort of vile urges.

On another note, anyone who claims that Cassanova would be mentally ill because of his liasons with girls doesn't understand mental illness very well. It can't be mental illness if it's a societal norm. For example, a sociopath doesn't care what anyone else thinks about them. Cassanova wasn't breaking a taboo, so he could still care. He just didn't have to worry about repercussions. Call the society barbaric if you will, but that doesn't mean that the members of the society are all mentally ill for buying into it's norms.

However, there is always the question of what lines gamers you game with are willing to cross. I can see potentially playing out relations with minors if done in a careful and detached manner, for example, as a source of exploration of setting. In point of fact, some of my players on occasion have made light of the "cabin boy" phenomenon in play (as a sort of couterpoint to modern sensibilities). But for the vast majority, I hope that they'd be offended if someone did take some sort of delight in some vicarious thrill in describing such an action. RPGs are social, and this would be akin to masturbating in public.

OTOH, if you're playing with Dav...just kidding!

Mike

The subject material needs to be dangerous to make the point in a way.  If the subject material is comfortable where is the effort to understand?

I'm not talking about acting out stuff though, and particularly not for a vicarious thrill, rather about attempting to understand other cultures on their own terms.  About roleplaying being more than John with a sword.  About John not being John anymore, or at least making an effort not to be.

I'm 35.  Sure, many gamers (including many older than me) just want escapism.  But the form of our hobby permits of more and one of the things we haven't really seen still is much significant attempt to genuinely use roleplaying as an exploration of other times and cultures.  Instead we have cultures surprisingly like our own, save for surface colour.  Frankly I've played as many escapist fantasies as I need to.  Something a little more adult (and I distinctly do not mean that in the sexual sense) would be nice, something which engages mentally and requires thought.  Something challenging in a way other than whether I can reach the next level.

I don't believe I'm alone in this.  Just as there were and are large numbers (if still a small minority) of frustrated narrativists I suspect there are large numbers of frustrated simulationists who want to explore what it is to be something or someone or somewhere else but instead get handed the same escapist fare but with more rules.

Hi Max,

I'm not sure where to go with this. Your final paragraph in both posts states your point, and it's not a point that bears much inquiry, I think. Or to put it another way, "Yes."

Can you help me out with what you'd like to see discussed?

Best,
Ron

I'd say the simulationist desire to involve the truly alien/different in RPGs can be seen all the way back to the Empire of the Petal Throne - which is not to say that such an endeavor can't be used as simply more exotic escapism, but  . . . I guess I'm just saying the desire for that experience is part of RPG history, and I see no signs that it's gone away.

One direction I can see this thread heading is: what techniques (besides simply "absorbing" a variant set of world-views and etc.) can a game use to help the participants create gameplay that is truly grounded in an alternate mindset?  (Note:  I don't yet know how to have a productive discussion that includes the word "immersion", but I suppose it's worth acknowleding that some people will consider this issue to be all about immersion, whatever that means to them).

Gordon

I'm going to hit this issue from both the pro and con side:

On the pro side, there's something to be said for injecting some cultural realism in our games. As someone who falls solidly in the camp o' narrativism and kind of heavy-handedly injects questions of morality into his games (just ask my group), I think we can examine ourselves and our pre-suppositions by using other cultures as a reflecting point. Using your example of Casanova, it could be easily used to ask the questions:
- Are our sexual mores innate or imposed by society? Does getting rid of those mores liberate us or corrupt us?
- Do we overprotect our children from sex? If it's a normal part of life, what compels us to put age limits on it? Does making teenage sex illicit also make it a compelling deviancy to some?

I see a lot of story potential in using culturally-different settings. To inject a side point, I hereby forever reject the thought of "but some of these subjects would fall flat because my group can't deal with them." If an author made juvenile remarks when writing about sex, or two grown people giggled over sexual passages in a book, I'd call these people out as, well, juvenile and annoying. Why should I treat people differently just because they play RPGs?

---

On the con side, sometimes it's easier to examine ourselves by putting on costumes. We understand our own culture better than we'll understand any others, and putting a little layer of separation by playing "us, but in Roman costumes" for example, can be a liberating experience that allows us to address questions we couldn't otherwise.

Quote from: BalbinusMy impression is that most gamers like only cosmetic differences, elves aren't really alien, they're just Americans with pointy ears. But surely one of the great possibilities of roleplaying is exploring what it would be like to live in another time, another place. What's the point if when we go there everyone is just like us?

I'm going to ignore the items about Casanova's life and attitudes and such and address the real point here. I've been doing some reading on this sort of thing, actually. In fact, check out the exerpt for Story: Substance, Structure, Style and The Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee. Pay special attention to the example of Like Water for Chocolate in the excerpt.

Quote from: Robert McKeeThe archtypal story unearths a universally human experience, then wraps itself inside a unique, culture-specific expression.

So, for our purposes here, since this is a book on storytelling, this would be a Narrativist form of play. So we would need a Premise to anchor the alien culture or else it won't appeal. To go back to Casanova and his affair with an 11 yr old. If we focus on the fact that she's a minor, at least by our society's view, then the story is fairly hollow. If, instead we address some form of premise, perhaps losing sex appeal as one ages noting that Casanova was surprised she was interested, then we have something we can work with. In this case she is not a minor because in her society she is not considered a minor and this was not a crime that he committed. So, we have a universal human experience, aging and the loss of sex appeal wrapped in the cultural reference of Casanova's society where the concept of child and adult is different from what we in the 21st century know.

Quote from: BalbinusI don't believe I'm alone in this.  Just as there were and are large numbers (if still a small minority) of frustrated narrativists I suspect there are large numbers of frustrated simulationists who want to explore what it is to be something or someone or somewhere else but instead get handed the same escapist fare but with more rules.

Yes  - though this demands a lot of the setting/GM.  Now, what do you think of solutions à la Pendragon, where the set of relevant contemporary values is embodied in the rules ?

Balb, I think I'm going to echo Ron here and just say...yeah.  I'm a member of that choir.

There's a lot of funky stuff that's perfectly normal in other societies that are just plain unfathomable to "us".

I think the most effective way this can be introduced in roleplaying games you've hit upon above already.

Picture the players in the game with Casanova as an NPC.
Introduce "little girl"
See "little girl" flirt with Casanova
See Casanova express surprise but arrange the liason
Allow players to react.  At some appropriate intersection have them become aware that the mother already knows.  Have whoever else the players are protesting to express shock and amazement that the players are so outraged (assuming they are).

In other words...break the players into what is considered "normal" for the society by allowing them to witness it...Connecticut Yankee style.

And building on what Ralph said - that is in fact the tactic in Empire of the Petal Throne, where the characters themselves are set up to be outsiders visiting the great city, so that the players can learn the culture as the characters do.

I'm wondering if we can find some other tools here, though . . .

Gordon

Gordon wrote:

QuoteI'm wondering if we can find some other tools here, though . . .

The most obvious permutation on Ralph's excellent approach is simply to replace Casanova as NPC with one of the PCs.  In other words, stage a party where PCs are guests and have the mother of a "little girl" (hold the fact that she is a "little girl" in abeyance) approach a PC about a liason with her daughters.  Make it clear through the dialogue that the mother is perfectly comfortable with what is to come. If the PC shows interest, introduce the "little girl" and use this as the opportunity for the PC to learn something about the cultural mores in play.  This would seem to work if the PCs have created characters who are cultural "insiders" as opposed to "outsiders" just learning about the culture.  Even if the PC reacts with disgust, horror or the like it's no real problem since clearly some insiders to a culture react to parts of their own culture in a similar way.

This is an interesting thread since at the moment I am thinking about sketching out a setting for Ron Edwards' Sorcerer & Sword that owes part of its inspiration to Suzy McKee Charnas' excellent Walk to the End of the World.  In this setting the definitions of appropriately "manly" behavior probably will not comport with many of the players' operating assumptions of same.  For example, sex between men is considered the highest expression of virile behavior, male friendship, etc. while sex with women is reserved for immature boys and purposes of simple procreation.  This thread has been helpful to me in thinking about how best to introduce this departure from what I imagine will be their expectations.

Cheers,

Eric

Sorry to followup my own post, but I forgot to add that plenty of other ways exist to introduce the same thing.  Perhaps the material culture of the people could reflect their sexual or other cultural mores through:

vase paintings that depict the behavior in question
tapestries or other textiles that do the same
songs, drama, literature, etc. that celebrate the values in question

This is obviously a very partial list but once you decide on something that is a cultural value, start thinking about the myriad ways in which they might inscribe this value in all sorts of ways within a cultural system.

Cheers,

Eric

Quote from: Valamir>SNIP<

Allow players to react.  At some appropriate intersection have them become aware that the mother already knows.  Have whoever else the players are protesting to express shock and amazement that the players are so outraged (assuming they are).

My one thing here is that it would be pretty boring for every story to a Connecticut Yankee story. This has made me rethink the role of worldbooks because if the whole group is on the same page about the culture, then it can fly a little more smoothly. That is, I think it can fly anyway, but it'd fly smoother.

I'm a little surprised some folk here can't see what there is to discuss.  The equivalent thread on rpg.net is now at 62 posts without a single flame and contains a lively discussion of how desireable it is to portray alien cultures per se and how one can practically do so while avoiding the pitfalls inherent in making them too alien or the game too didactic.

Anyway, there are a number of issues, not limited to the following:

1)  Obviously for most people gaming is about escapism.  Not for all though.  That being so, if it is true that some wish to explore other mindsets how can this be achieved?  Are there mechanical approaches which would assist?  Are there practical GMing techniques or play techniques that would assist?  What are the pitfalls in attempting to reflect other cultures more accurately when in actual play?

2)  Can the exploration of other cultures mores shed light upon our own?  Obviously yes.  That being so could the better portrayal of such be a potentially powerful technique for exploring issues in gaming about ourselves and our own values?  Clinton touches on this to good effect and it is something I see generally as being basically ignored in most games, narrativist or otherwise.

3)  What makes something difficult to roleplay?  Is it simply a question of taboo issues or are there areas which are not taboo but remain too alien to still accurately portray?  If so, given we are human and speaking of human viewpoints what does that say about us as humans?  Does that mean the roleplaying of aliens or fantasy races as anything other than men with pointy ears is necessarily impossible?  Should we even try or is the only point in portrayal of the non-human the gaining of nifty powers?  

4)  Can the tension between our own values and those of the cultures we portray in game be used to generate drama in and of itself?  Is there potentially a way of creating story now by utilising our own discomfort?  If for example we play a game set in heroic age Greece with the premise, What does it mean to be a Hero?  Can the tension between our notions of heroism and the highly divergent classical Greek notions of heroism assist in investigating that premise?  If so, how can this most effectively be done without lapsing into didacticism?


Thierry takes us interestingly into the realm of mechanics.  Pendragon is one of the very few games which attempts to mechanically assist the player in entering into a different mindset.  It does so successfully and is highly regarded.  And yet, almost nobody else has adopted this approach (Fading Suns being another honourable exception).  This is an interesting pragmatic point, clearly what I am speaking of can be done because Pendragon has done it, Fading Suns has done it.  Is this the best way to do it though or are there, as Gordon asks, other tools?

Does that help?

Quote from: BalbinusAnd yet, almost nobody else has adopted this approach

I would disagree there. Any game, like Hero Wars, that gives a bonus (augmenting base skills) for playing appropriate cultural keywords uses this approach, even though the modern way is to propose incentives (carrots) rather than constraints on behaviour.

Yet I'm not sure that providing sets of cultural values corresponds to what you have in mind. It tells you what is valued (Courage, Compassion whatever...) but it doesn't tell you what acts the culture considers as showing (or lacking) courage, compassion etc.