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Hello.  I'm Pyron.  You may remembe me from threads such as Classes versus reality, and those threads where I bitched at my players.  Anyway-

We were bored one night and I said that I'd GM 3rd ed.  We were up for it and so while everyone made their characters, I made my dungeon.  I've never made a dungeon before, so this was a real joy.  I decided that they'd start off intown in the heartlands of the forgotton realms and then they'd get the party together and investigate this tower because of a link it had with a recent dissapearance of caravans.

Players:

Anthony
PC: Wandering High Elf Ranger from Evermeet.  Very propper, group leader.

Avery
PC: Perverted Elven Ranger.  Lowsy apprentice.  Sent on a missin to accompany them.

Cody
PC: Sorceror halfling who was in an alchemy accident.

Doug
PC: Wizard Gnome.

So, we start off with Cody's character entering an inn to get something to eat.  In walks Anthony's character.  They talk a while.  They then visit a weapon shop where Avery's character is apprenticing someone.  Avery's character is asleep while an old guy is working hard forging a sword.  Anthony's character wakes up Avery's character with an arrow.  They go off and get Doug's character (Who's working in the town library).  After an attempt to search (and less noble things) Avery's character is knocked out and they stay in the inn. They go off to the "Riddle Tower" and wait untill night to enter.  Once inside they find three passageways, each with a seperate riddle.  This is where the first session ends (With Avery bitching about how he barelly got more experience than everyone else.  He had been one of the only two who had gotten in-game experience.  As a result I gave him less experience as a reward.  He ended up with 500, Anthony[who had gotten some in-game experience] with 400, Cody with 300, Doug with 200)

They break all three riddles and then proceed through a set of traps and kobalds and more riddles and a door and more crap.  They spent half an hour on this riddle:

Quote"The beginning of eternity
The end of time and space
The beginning of every end,
And the end of every place."

They struggled to solve it, talking about more phylisophical crap than a college student trying to bullshit his way to an A in philosophy 101.  (At least it was funny until they took me outside and beat me into the ground, litterally) Answer at bottom of post*

Eventually they get to a large ball room full of ghosts.  They almost skipped it, but I managed to get them to stay there.  (Anthony's character even danced with a ghost).  Avery, in an attempt to prove that they were ghosts, tried to fire an aarow at one.  So I locked him up (So I could introduce another player who was a thief, Charly's character)  Avery fired an aarow at Charly's character and Charly managed to use it to escape.  So yeah.  This was a lot of fun for me, because I could actually use NPCs.  They were stuck in an endless loop unaware of their ghost status.  So yeah, it was all the most fun I've ever had in D&D.

Complaints: Anthony.  This made him realise that he wanted to run planescape.

Doug: He complained that the other players weren't roleplaying (Since Avery kept shooting at Charly for no real reason)

Avery: He wants more experience.

Cody: I couldn't figure out the experience tables for monsters as fast as he could (They're in two different sections of the DM guide [a book I've never read] and I failed to coordinate them quickly.).  Also, he claims to 'suck' at riddles.

So...um... I like the game.  We went three sessions in a weekend.  The only thing I thought that I did wrong was make the players futally wait to get into the tower until night instead of telling them to do so.  I thought that the riddles were cool.  And I've got some cool stuff planed.  I thought that I'd just share one of my experiences with the community...so......uh......

*e

Hey guys whats up, its been awhile since I have posted on the forge so I just wanted to say hi.

I'll come right out and say it I suck at riddles and I still haven't figured out why Eric thinks I can get them, I simply cant tink in riddles. ok had to get that of my chest first, onward with the post. well I gotta hand it to ya Eric, for a first shot at 3ed it was pretty good, I have just one complaint. in 3ed combat is king and the dudgeon you designed wasn't too doungeonish, I mean the riddles and stuff were creative but for Charlie Doug and I they were impossible, Avery and Anthony were the only ones who could solve them. the one time we fought a group of spiders we got more XP than all the riddles combined and in much less time. I just think that you should add in a bit more combat next time to allow me and Charlie to do well and be able to keep up with the riddle answerers XP. I also might suggest doing something more aggressive with Avery to stop his complaining and going off and doing things that will get the rest of the party killed because hes mad he didn't get enough XP. its just too hard for us to control him, at one point I had to slap him with shocking grasp to keep him from shooting at the ghosts (which he did anyway when I left).

Yeah.  I tried to punish him by keeping the spider experience from him.  It didn't work.  You're probably right about giving you guys challenges other than riddles.  However, I must comment that killing the spiders got you less experience than all of the riddles combined.  + It didn't give you access to other areas. + It entailed more danger.

Anyway, I'll try to add stuff to balance out the experience from riddles.  What do you believe are your strengths?  I'll try to add challenges accordingly.

What do you mean that it wasn't dungeonish?  I thought it was.  There were cobwebs and dust everywhere and it was lit only by magical torches and crap.  And there was even some writing in blood.  + There was the whole ghost ball and the kobalds.

Greetings again, everyone. It's been a long time since I've posted here. For those who don't remember, I am the aforementioned Anthony present in Eric's post.

Anyway, I would have to say that the 3E D&D campaign Eric is running right now is great. We played three consecutive sessions, one each night over the Labor Day weekend, and they were great. I liked the riddles, well, except for the one Eric posted (It goes back to an old reference to Betrayal at Krondor, a Sierra CRPG. Not to mention that it really ticked me off when I finally got the answer.)

Anyway, I suppose I don't have too much to add to what's been said for right now, besides that fact that I wouldn't consider my new want to run some more Planescape a complaint, Eric simply inspired me to GM again. ...and when I get inspired, I get inspired. (I have a campaign we were doing which is on a temporary hold, since we like to jump between things, and I wanted to continue it for a session or two.)

Congradulations, Eric, you finally did something right. :)

Hi guys!

We talked a lot about the difference between in-game challenges (e.g. spider fights, climbing walls, talking to hostile or semi-hostile potential allies) and purely out-of-game challenges that nonetheless permit your characters to "move on," in this thread: [Tunnels & Trolls] Half-elves are poncy nancy-boys. That topic starts up on the second page of that thread.

Here are a couple of things to consider as well.

1. Perhaps you should slow down. Zipping along with three sessions in three days is a good way to get a punchy GM and poorer sessions, because play of this sort relies on the players getting really pressured in the most fun way possible.

2. Eric, it's pretty clear to me after all these years in role-playing that "punish the players by not awarding E.P.s" never works, in terms of changing players' behavior. Reward systems exist to be used, or, the carrot works great but the stick doesn't.

It seems to me as if at least a couple of your players want more fights and more treasure - by "dungeonish," I'm pretty sure he means, "lots of foes, lots of fights, lots of killing." Why not provide multiple options, in that perhaps the characters can choose whether to address some riddles or to fight some foes, and leave it up to the players which to do? Instead of hitting them with a riddle and saying, "Solve it or stop."

Best,
Ron

Well,

1.  Got it covered.  We only played in the evenings, and it was because we really felt like it.  Doesn't happen often.

2. Very clear to me too.  I've talked to him and I think that he might change his behavior (Avery's).

I want to adress the riddle thing specifically.  It's been a big hit with some players and a big waste of time for others.

The thing is that they've solved every riddle that I've allowed, even the several that didn't need to be solved.  I've combat all but the first session.  I, however, want to keep putting riddles in front of doors.  However, I try to make sure to give players the option of solving a selection of riddles.  Anyway, I don't know if more players want more combat than Cody.  I'll have to wait and find out.

I agree with Ron, re: making the thing "more dungeonish". You've got two rangers in the party, have they defined what humanoid race they each hunt? If so, make them the primary adversary. Give them a reason to be hanging around the tower. It's obvious that Avery is itching to use his arrows, give him appropriate opportunities to do so, or he will do so on his own (as he has done, to the detriment of the overall mood, it would seem).

As far as riddles: As Jared would say, obstacles should provide options, not remove them. In other words, a wall placed in front of your characters will (and should) prevent them from moving forward, but you then need to give them the option of moving sideways. A riddle is the classic metaphorical wall. Allow for an alternative to simply solving the riddle (search for a secret door or somesuch). If Cody claims to suck at riddles, it's possible that he simply doesn't like them. Solution: don't make him solve riddles (forcing them on him won't make anyone happy). last resort: have them make Int rolls to see if their characters know the answer. If one of them makes it, slip him a note, and have him declare it out loud in character, just as if he solved it himself.

As far as experience awards, here's a thought: Someone had an idea once (might have been here, if so, I can't remember where or when) to ask them how much experience they would like to earn per session, then scale the CRs accordingly (the best thing would probably ask at the end of each session, regarding the next one, that way you have time to prepare). Don't hold them to a hard-and-fast number, if they come up with something like "we'd like to level-up in three sessions", then it's simply a matter of doing the math. If they get toasted, it's their own damn fault for setting the bar too high. Oh, and be flexible on how they can earn the XP. Don't penalize them because they circumvented a fight you had planned, especially if their solution is particularly clever.

-- Ben

My thoughts on the matter is that we probibly nead a little more action but not Kobalds every 10m, and the riddles are anoying as heck.. I mean look who in the right mind at 2(Am) would think of the letter (E)... So i would apricate it if the riddles where a little more ovios than that. As for the session it went well till Avery went over the edge and started shooting an other player for no reasion... and the player that he was shooting at just agtising him to shoot agen and agen. So i just wont to get my fealling clear on the seesion and that you should pout BIG peniltys for acting stuped.

And any tips on role playing a mage gnome would help.......

Look,  the riddles are there for the players that enjoy riddles (Me, Avery, and Anthony).  The kobalds are there for the players that enjoy slaughtering kobalds (Cody, Avery, and Cody).  The ghosts were there for some fun social interaction.  It was 10AM when I gave the letter 'e' riddle.  Everyone had a blast pounding me after that.  It would be MUCH more helpfull telling me what you DO enjoy in a campaign, then what you DON'T enjoy.  I believe that I already have a good feel for the latter.  More action?  You got it, though I would argue that we had enough last session (Spider attacks, ghouls, skelletons, etc.).

Quote from: Sinthrill. . . and the riddles are anoying as heck.. I mean look who in the right mind at 2(Am) would think of the letter (E)... .

Howdy,

The thing about riddles is that you aren't in your "right mind" -- whatever that is -- when solving them.  There's a specific frame of mind that goes along with riddling that a lot of us don't use much.  Stephen King treats on it a bit in the third Dark Tower book, _The Waste Lands_.  Mckillip's novel The Riddle-Master of Hed also touches on what I'm referring to, and reads well to boot.

Looking to pun (as opposed to just taking the ones that present themselves) seems to be a similar sort of thinking.  

In any case, luck guys.  

Regards,
Will

Thanks for the info.  Very interesting actually, because Anthony enjoys puns as well.  I'll look into it.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

There are a couple of problems with Riddles.

First, make sure that riddles do not prevent the game from progressing if the players can't get them. If you do so, the game stalls, and nobody has fun. This doesn't mean that you can't have riddles be obstacles, but that the game will continue in some satisfactory way if the players don't get them. I could write a ton on what makes a good way to implement this and how not to do so. But I'll leave it at this: whatever happens, success or failure, the characters should seem cooler after it's done. That's right, figure out how to make failure make characters seem cooler, and you'll solve most of your problems in play.

Make sure that any riddles you do use relate to something in-game, such that players aren't expected to go outside the game for answers. Did it occur to you that your players might be under the assumption that their characters don't speak English, and therefore thought that the riddle was actually translated from another language? If that's the case, then the solution is non-sensical. The characters have to think like the players, about whose existance I assume your characters are unaware. Big problem.

Mike

The few times I've used riddles in an adventure they served as a fork.  Get it right, get in trouble.  Get it wrong, get in more trouble.  Take too long, trouble finds you.  No matter what, there's going to be trouble (or else why play).  The riddle just adds some texture.

One of my favorites I stole from Least Appreciated, Chronicals of Narnia novel.

"Harken well adventurous stranger,
Strike the bell and bide the danger;
or wonder til it drives you mad
what would have happened if you had"

Its not a traditional riddle...there's no "answer" per se.

But there is a choice, to strike the bell or not.

Players are paranoid...if they strike the bell there will be danger.
If they don't...they'll never know what would have happened...but will they really go mad...?

Point is, didn't really matter what choice the made, it worked either way.

QuoteThat's right, figure out how to make failure make characters seem cooler, and you'll solve most of your problems in play.

Mike's actually latched onto something that's been a bit of a revelation for me in the last year or so. In trying to figure out "what I wanted" from RPGs, I decided that more than anything else, I wanted to see "my guy" do cool stuff. And as a GM, I wanted to see everyone's character's do cool stuff.

And he's absolutely right. Jack Burton is cool, even when he fumbles a firearms roll and brings a chunk of concrete down on his head. Jack Crow is cool, even when the vampires pull off some weird funky kung-fu shit he didn't know they could do. The Terminator is cool, even when Robert Patrick impales him on a steel pipe. The Dude is cool, even when nothing goes right the whole day.

-- Ben