The Forge Archives

I guess this thread should really be called: No Press RPG Anthology.

I was reading over Jon Walton's Facedancer RPG and frankly I was inspired.

There are so many of these ultra-light RPGs being produced out there, and none of them have a home.

Facedancer, Wuxia, Unsung, Risus, and Lumpley's monkey business all fall into this category. And I am sure there are a dozen I am forgetting (and I guess Risus has a home).

What about instead of a zine or periodical (as discussed here many times), we start compiling games such as these into a Forge Anthology?

The technology is available to do this at little cost or and hardly any risk.
I would be happy to edit/curate, but I would also love to have one of the Big Guns on my side to help me sort dross and gold (hint: Ron, Ralph, Jake, Mike, Paul, etc. You know, the guys who's games actually sell?).


Designers submit PDFs of short form RPGs to the anthology. When we get enough pieces for a, say, 128pg book, I lay it out, hire someone to do folio work, a cover and back cover (Colin, you up for something like this? your work would be perfect)

Then we can pdf it or I would prefer to do a really nice, clean print edition and do it POD MLwM style.

Can be done.
The only requirements would be a complete game no longer than x pages, and a willingness to accept criticism from fellow game designers.
Complete= playable and stand-alone, edited for spelling, syntax and grammar and laid out in a legible manner.

am i crazy for wanting to do this?

I want to give rpgs like facedancer and wuxia a nice warm, cozy home!

and I LOVE print.

So, designers of aforementioned games, does any of this interest you?

please talk me out of this.
no, wait. don't.
-Luke

Luke,

This has been discussed many times and nothing's happened so far. I'll tell you why: lack of direction and leadership. It's always turned into one of those situations where everyone asks what everyone else thinks until they get bored and leave.

So - be a leader, make a plan, and stick with it. I've no doubt you could do this, but only if it's done with some real leadership.

Yeah.  I'm on board.  And I've got a light game to submit, Pollies.  Tell me what to do to assist in making this happen and I'll do it.

Hello,

Hey Luke, check out Best of the Forge?

Best,
Ron

That's the exact same thing Ron said to me when I proposed a similar idea about a year ago.  Check out Indy RPG Anthology?: "Death to D20".  It has a tendency to sound dismissive ("this has been proposed before and it's never happened"), at least it did to me, but I don't think that's what Ron means.  

Clinton's right.  The only reason it's never happened is because nobody's made it their personal project.  When I first came to the Forge, I didn't have the confidence or connections to pull off such a project.  Now I would feel differently. Already, stuff like Matt Snyder's new zine, Daedalus (coming out this month) prove that such projects are possible and desirable.

If you build it, they will come.

Ok, i briefly read over ron's issues on the Best of the Forge.

Let me briefly address them:
Copyright: Hundreds of anthologies get published in the US every year (perhaps thousands, who knows). Usually there are rights and usage agreements worked out for these. We will do the same. The author of said games grants the Forge Anthology the non-exclusive right to incorporate the game in and publish, sell and distribute the game within the anthology. Author otherwise retains copyrights. If anyone is really hinky about this, I will have a lawyer draft the rights clause.

Money (profit): Any money devoted to the anthology (by way of production or shipping costs) is repaid to the person who expended that money (at this point, that's me).

After costs have been repaid, profit from sales would be divided among the published authors. It'll only be a couple of bucks, but it will feel good none the less!

Money (cost) The publisher/editor pays the costs of producing the book. Hopefully he'll get repaid through sales. In addition, for all their hardwork, all the editors get an editor's plug wherein they can briefly and tasteful promote their own enterprises.

Length of Contributions This would have to be decided beforehand. Perhaps the games must come in under 32 8.5x11 pages? This is to be decided, but right now I am with Jon W in thinking all games get an equal share regardless of length. This is for mutual support and promotion, not for money or clout.

I am imagining less than 10 games per anthology.

Price $20? If we keep sales direct, then we might actually make a dollar or two per sale.

Final Say
Since we are using their logo and oeuvre, I think Ron and Clinton should have final approval on the finished piece. Basically, they just flip through and sign off on it. Or if they don't like something, we go back to the drawing board and fix it.

Immediate Goal
To have an anthology of Ultra-Light, Forge inspired/designed games in printed format on the shelves at the Forge booth at GenCon 2004.


How's them apples?
-Luke

Hi there,

Problem: you just assigned ownership to Clinton and me. According to my view, ownership is not a matter of "rights." It's a matter of power over the material, in any way, shape, or form.

Legal documentation of rights is, in my view, an unpleasant joke. It unilaterally involves the author not being able to exercise certain decisions. In this case, as described, the author is not able to exercise full power over whether the "album" is published per se. It gives that power to me and Clinton, and bluntly, we don't want it.

Let me state again that I'd love, love, love to see a compilation of independent games, just like a punk rock album featuring a dozen bands. I'm not simply throwing up barriers for no reason. I'm trying to outline issues that simply have to be solved.

The money issue reflects exactly the same problem. Say you, or me, or whoever is the publisher/editor ... they just became Image Comics. Does each author who publishes under that logo really own their work? Opinions differ greatly, and I happen to be at the extreme end of that spectrum, and I say they don't.

Let me clarify further. Am I "disallowing" this project? No. No. I am not. I am saying, if you want to do it, go for it. Work out the whoever-and-whatever as you see fit.

But here are the concepts to work with. It can reference the Forge, but it can't be a Forge publication; the Forge isn't a company. Clinton and I can't be the green-light red-light guys; we aren't willing to own the games (which is what that constitutes). And the games involved can't be considered "independent" in terms of this publication, because their authors are not the publishers. This latter can be given some slack, I think, but it's significant in a couple of ways.

Clinton, if I've mis-spoken any aspect of your outlook by including it with mine, let me know.

Best,
Ron

ya know, i've got to heartily disagree with you on this one.

You're right that the authors aren't the publishers of the anthology and this suddenly takes the enterprise outside of your definition of indie-rpg.

however, if you create an independent vessel for all authors/editors to put their work in, then it becomes a collective exercise (in independence).

Sticking true to the Forge definition of indie rpg, no anthology is possible.

However, holding to the unwritten ideals of what you have undeniably created here at the Forge, I think most would agree that an anthology is in the spirit of the Forge. We all come together and put this out. It is a collaborative effort. It goes under the Forge umbrella.

Indie doesn't have to mean loner. Those horrible punk rock bands which you eulogize more often than not donated their songs to a LABEL who then produced the compilation and reaped all the profit. 9 times out of 10, the bands saw nothing for their efforts (except exposure, of course).

I see ownership as having the rights to publish said work.
Granting permission to another publisher to reproduce your work is not loss of ownership. I said nothing about the author having to abide by any restrictions. The author is free to publish their work online or whereever in conjunction with the anthology. That's an individual call.

As for money, someone has to be point on this. We all trusted Adept Press with our cash at GenCon. ::gasp:: Did we all temporarily give up our independence to be under that umbrella? I dunno.
But at the end of the day, the cash was divided and we all got our share.
Much fuss, but no muss.
Why can't the same model apply to the anthology?

so Ron doesn't want to be EiC? That's fine. Perfectly understandable.

The real reason I am looking to you and Clinton (and others that i've mentioned) is because you possess two things that I don't: experience and clout. Both of those epheremals help IMMEASURABLY when getting an enterprise like this off the ground.

Look at my Forge East proposal for an example of somebody with no clout trying to get something done around here.

-Luke

BTW, I love punk rock, but anthologies or V/As were always the worst of the worst.

Ron's not misstated my case, except I'd like to clarify: underneath the non-exclusive right to publish plan that Luke has, the games would still be independent: the decision to publish in anthology format is the author's choice.

The Forge isn't a company, though, and Ron and I can't be heads of this project. If I were to do something like this, it'd be as Anvilwerks, not the Forge.

Righty-O. The non-exclusivity does make a big difference. With any luck, that solves the main "concept" hassle.

Um, and my view regarding the cash box at the Forge booth isn't that you guys were trusting me. I was trusting the collective "un-owned" box along with the rest of us.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon
The Forge isn't a company, though, and Ron and I can't be heads of this project. If I were to do something like this, it'd be as Anvilwerks, not the Forge.

the Forge is an idea and an almost a place. I understand this.

However, I personally think you are doing yourselves a disservice by not making it an entity. But that's just my opinion.

So you would do it through Anvilwerks? Would you prefer that I do this through Burning Wheel?

Such a move seems to open up a huge fucking can of worms. First of all, I think the anthology needs the Forge logo on it to survive and be understood. And by keeping it away from any of our own imprints I think better recognizes the full independence of the project.

I wouldn't want a glossy WotC book of WotC presents The Forge Anthology. I don't see why any of our enterprises should count differently in this.

What about creating a publishing house specifically designed just to publish the Forge Anthology. Completely seperate from the Forge, but uses the logo and promotes the site?
Pixel Fire Collective (heh) presents The Forge Anthology Volume 1?

-L

Please excuse me if I'm out of line here but it seems like what people want is "The Forge" in the title of the book and an endorsement by Ron and Clinton.

So, without any approval power over the contents of the book, do you (Ron and Clinton) give permission to use "The Forge" in the title?  Also, would one or both of you be willing to write an introduction for the book?

Hi,

I'm speaking for myself only here, not for Clinton. My call is that the Forge can be mentioned in any and all sorts of ways, and that the logo might be used for an advertisement for the site, but it can't be used as a "publishing logo" or as part of the title. Maybe text like "games developed at the Forge" or something like that would be good cover material, but again, not as part of the title.

As for writing an introduction or something, I guess so. Expecially if that non-exclusivity thing is emphasized, meaning that this publication is an outlet for the independent companies. And some of the money issues need to be a little clearer in my mind, but nothing major is acting as a roadblock for me.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHi,

the logo might be used for an advertisement for the site, but it can't be used as a "publishing logo" or as part of the title. Maybe text like "games developed at the Forge" or something like that would be good cover material, but again, not as part of the title.

hrm, i don't want to be a negative nancy, but this seems like a death blow to me.

I see where you are going with not wanting the Forge to become a "thing", but said anthology won't fly without the name recognition that comes with what you have fostered and developed here.

Without the Forge's inherent clout backing the piece, a whole 'nother marketing/branding campaign would need to be done to get the thing out there. And that's what we are all trying so desperately to do with our own projects -- and we all know how hard it is. Starting from zero makes this concept nearly impossible.

I hate to sound like an ad-exec, but branding is everything these days. Without the Forge "brand" the anthology stands little chance. With it, it's got a hell of a chance.

I disagree, Luke. Why must the project necessarily fail without the Forge's "approval?" You're right, we are trying to increase recognition for our little games individually. But your original goal wasn't to make these micro games Sorcerer-level famous, it was just to get them collected and in some usable format (you specified print).

There are other "brands" that might consider taking up this gauntlet, mainly other eager and charitable publishers here on the Forge or elsewhere. Failing that, starting from scratch hardly seems impossible to me. Difficult, time-consuming perhaps. Not impossible.

Furthermore, I think you'll find that in the grand scheme of things, many, many folks do not think the Forge is the bees knees. Rightly or wrongly, there are many folks who dismiss the Forge, whatever that means, outright.

(EDIT: Grammar corrected)