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So, I'm really, really frustrated at this moment. That's my qualifier for this entire post. Please take the following with a grain of salt. As the title states, I really do feel as if I'm at the end of my rope.

The "kicker" for all this is a series of statements from one of the individuals in a game that I run on a weekly basis. Those who have followed my posts are familiar with the fact that, shortly after changing over from D&D3e to HeroQuest, my gaming group imploded. We collapsed from a 7-8 person group to a (now) 3 person group. The issues arise, however, when a fourth individual, who was nominally a member of the group to begin with, was speaking with me at my house this past week.

This fourth individual was "just dropping by." Actually, he's been prowling around the edge of my games for the last 3 weeks. He has stated that he's interested in taking over the game and running D&D (which runs counter to my entire reason for starting the game, see below). His comments about how sucky HeroQuest was followed my question of why he was interested in running but not interested in playing. My main concern was that he wasn't really interested in coming to a game on a weekly basis. I also have no desire to play D&D three times a week.

My frustration came from a regular player who launched into his own attack on HeroQuest and basically stating how crappy it was to play in a HeroQuest game. This hit me completely out of left-field, but (in retrospect) it actually fits in with a number of things that have come to light over the past week.

A little background first.

Originally, my weekly group pulled players from all different places. We met at the FLGS and I had a little overlap among the other groups with whom I play. But it was never enough to constitute yet another meeting of the same old crowd. My weekly game now, however, has become "another meeting of the same old crowd." I've played with them for quite a while now (going on 3 years) and it hasn't always be a labor of love.

First off, I like these guys (well, most of them) but I'm no longer sure if I like roleplaying with them. For reasons of which I am unaware, I have become persona-non-grata among their crowd of late. This happens as they seem to cycle through a strange ritual of disliking this person or that person for brief periods of time for reasons that only tangentially relate to anything that person has said or done. So, whereas in the past when they were having a "boardgame night" or going out to a movie, I might get a phonecall once in a while, no invites come now. Whereas, in the past, my characters in their RPGs would integrate with the party (I've often created flat-out support PCs to this end), now for some reason my characters are singled out, humiliated, killed mercilessly, and I am even subjected to barbs or being the butt of the evening's biting jokes as a result. Normally, if this function is divided equally among the group, I don't mind. We're all here to have a good time. (Right?) But lately it seems that more and more of the forced humiliation winds up on my doorstep. I don't mind kidding and laughing it up. But must it all come at my expense? And lately it has started getting personal.

For example, in the last game (which occured the night before my own) that was run by one of my players (the group meets separately on a night when I am not running; I try to play as often as I can), I knew within the first 20 minutes of play that the DM had decided that my character was going to die. According to the DM, the game was a standard D&D game and the DM made some minor pronouncements warning against evil characters (but nothing really concrete, as usual). So, I decided that I would be a Paladin. I thought I could supply some healing as well as turning and combat back-up. Usually, I play a Cleric or some such. It really is pointless for me to play anything else in this group. My theives are all beaten within an inch of their life, besides the fact that I have never stolen anything from the party (other than papers that another player said were papers stating that his character owned mine). My wizards are generally left for dead or outright killed by other wizards in the party. My fighters generally get slaughtered too in a typical "my broadsword is bigger than yours" contest. So, I generally stick with Clerics. If one thing is assured, it's that people will need healing. Clerics are usually safe and usually stay alive. So, I didn't think it would be a far stretch to play a Paladin. My bad...

Within the first 20 minutes of play, one of the players had been turned into a vampire (by GM fiat nonetheless) by a very heavy-handed railroad scene (i.e. the player had no chance of winning and was not even afforded the opportunity to fight back/resist). That's fine. No complaints here. The player who had been turned into a vampire was A-OK with it. Who am I to complain?

Little did I know...

The DM allows the player to keep playing the PC as a vampire. Meanwhile, my background comes into play. See, I'm a paladin from a beleagured nation to the North. We had been fighting a war against Goblinoids for over a decade and my mission was to ask the king of this land for aid. So the king puts me up in the castle...

In the vampire's old chambers. To my credit, a lucky roll on Turning allowed my 3rd level Paladin to banish the vampire. But I had no magical weapons. No spells. Nothing. I was a sitting duck outside of my lucky roll on Turning. So I died. 6 hours over 2 evenings to just up and die. I could have easily just turned in my character sheet to the DM. All attempts at procuring help were thwarted. For some reason, there were no clerics in this kingdom from whom I could ask assistance. For some reason, there was no one (not even the King) who would lend me a blade that might hurt this vampire-PC. So I holed up in the chapel and waited. Another PC (who had since been turned into a Ghoul) came along and desecrated the chapel prior to the vamp-PC showing up. So, no protection there. As a GM gimme, the DM created a +1 sword out of thin air for me to find. It wasn't much good, however. My 3rd level paladin had to face off against 2 Ghouls, a vamp-samurai and a cleric of undead. To his credit, another PC managed to stay non-undead long enough not to partake in this round of Paladin Pinata. To another player's credit, he was significantly disgusted enough by what was happening to take an active role against the other players. He had also been subjected to such treatment in the past. Repeatedly. I daresay he finds it distasteful.

But this is how their sessions go. Someone starts it off by pickpocketing another player. Another PC offs someone else. Or we just spend the evening being belligerent to each other. Thing is... I'm tired of it. Sure, it can be fun every now and again to do the whole "imploding evil PCs" game, but every weekend?? I've seen them play the same way in Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Marvel Superheroes... you name it. Same evil-backstabbing sociopaths... Different genre...

But what really cheesed me were comments by another player regarding HeroQuest.

I like (make that LOVE) HeroQuest. I think it's a great game. I started running on my own nights at the FLGS in order to try out games like HeroQuest. Games that just don't get a fair amount of exposure in this area (because they're not D&D). I've had mixed success with it (with this particular group). Over the course of several weeks, I still have not had a player take a follower or a sidekick. They think these will be used as "plot bait." Suffice to say that I have NEVER done this in a game I ran. Yet, they are so used to it outside of my games that it is, I suppose, proper DM tactics. Players continue to create the "Man With No Name" character. It seems like everyone wants to play Yojimbo. No name, no connections... But even the samurai in Yojimbo had more depth than the entire group of PCs with which I have to work combined.

And then it comes. Outside of calling my character names, such as being called an "ass" for trying to drive the ghoul out of the chapel before it desecrated it (which the player did with considerable glee). Tangent starts here: it was funny that I was called an "ass" because I was trying to get the ghoul to *leave* without killing him. See, like it or not, he was a PC. I just don't dig stepping all over other players' fun to prove what a big strong man I am. So, instead of kill him, I tried to drive him away. Ironic. As it turns out, I should have killed him. The DM had his legs cut off shortly after I died. So now he's a legless ghoul. Would've worked out better as a dead ghoul.

But the catcalls and barbs keep coming. I'm in "Endure it and move on" mode because I know I'm gonna die soon. I'm honestly just trying to wriggle my way into a situation where I can be killed by the vampire instead of a ghoul, reasoning that I might conceivably "join the party" in that fashion. And then one of the players starts laying into HeroQuest. The statements passed around were how it is too freeform. You can just make up whatever you want. etc. etc. Even players in my weekly game join in. So, not only am I being dismantled as a PC, I am having my GM style and game of choice ridiculed for all to witness. As it turns out, my efforts were fruitless anyway. The vampire did kill me. But didn't turn me into a vampire. I was under the *impression* that anyone who is killed by a vampire in D&D is then raised as a vampire. Apparently, I was wrong yet again. So, here we have a predominantly undead party and guess who gets to create a human PC for next week's pinata party?

A little more backstory now: I have been trying to get this group to try a game of HeroQuest for going on 3 months. I think the system has its merits. So, when the DM torch is passed, I offer to run HeroQuest. "No," come the replies, "We don't want to learn another system." So, instead we play RIFTS, out of 7 people I am only one of four to have ever played Palladium before. So there are at least 3 people willing to learn a new system. And instead we play Shadowrun which, again, out of 7 people, only 2 have played before. Ah, so five people want to learn... I give up.

See, prior to the "deconstruction" of my playing preferences, I was having a really hard time "getting" it. Now I think I do. While others were whooping it up and ridiculing everything except for my shoe-size, I was listening to what was passing right on by the rest of them.

They actually ENJOY this style of backstabbing, buddy-screwing play. I had been confused because, in the past, all I had ever heard was them bitching about it. I had heard "Wah, Wah, this and then he did Wah, Wah, that." This led me to believe that the group actually didn't like the buddy-screwing, not to mention the masochistic role the players often had to take with the GM's railroading and derision. So I thought, like me, they *wanted* something different.

I've come to believe now that I was wrong.

Despite the whinings and complaints to the contrary, they actually DO enjoy this style of play. IME, it's not gamist, it's not narrativist, nor even is it simulationist. It's just flat out dysfunctional. It's a group of individuals that get together to attempt to make others all around feel less about themselves.

Has anyone else encountered this or groups like this? I'm resolved to break off my entanglements in this particular group. Maybe (just maybe) there is an oasis in this area where people want to do something other than pickpocket my paladin's holy symbol. Somewhere I can mention games like Sorcerer, HeroQuest and the Pool and players respond with engaged interest, even curiosity, instead of defending the Palladium system like it was some almight tome of RPG design. Since when is the statement "There's this game I bought called HeroQuest. I think it's really cool." an attack on Palladium?? Especially when stated during the commercials of a Dave Chappelle Show episode (as in "not stated at the gaming table")? Apparently, one of the players has a problem with this, as it was one of the many things pushed into my face.

I do think this necessary break is a shame though because there are a couple of players who I genuinely like. They are nice guys stuck in an abusive cycle. Unfortunately, I don't have the inclination to endure the heckling and jibes of those who apparently think so little of me.

Any other advice on this situation? I think I know what Ron would say and I'm already acting towards that end. Sorry that this rambles a bit, but the entirety of it adds up to one big ball of frustration. In order to address what I perceived to be unsatisfying roleplay for the group, I go on a quest for more engaging games/systems. I am ridiculed/humiliated for this. For some reason, I'm apparently known as the "whacky systems guy" even though I've run around 7 different systems in three years (spread over three separate groups) while this particular group goes through 4 in just as many months. And to add injury to insult, apparently no one is *really* interested in playing these new games I'm introducing on my game night (whose initial purpose was to try new things). They only do so for some unspoken reason. Quite possibly it's part of their routine. Further, it turns out (from my most recent observations) that what I had taken at face value as unsatisfying play actually isn't. These guys actually like sitting around, being jerks to one another and then complaining about it to each other days later. It's almost like being a hamster on a wheel...

Scott

Well, taking what you say with a grain of salt, if they actually DO enjoy the one-upsmanship you refer to, it might not be as dysfunctional as you think.

Regardless, it sounds like it's not functional for YOU, and not just on a gaming level, per se. At the very least, you need a break from these guys.

My advice would be to leave the group and never play with them again.  Preserving the friendship can be optional; the important thing is that you remove yourself from the game group as a participant.

I recently ran into a similar situation, and decided to leave the group of several years.  As a result, I haven't actually gamed in several months.  But you know what?  I haven't missed it.  No play at all is better than disfunctional play.

Wow.

Sounds like one big Self-Esteem Black Hole.

I suggest throwing the engines into full escape mode and heading to a more pleasant part of the galaxy.

You know that you don't enjoy the dominant mode of play. The players show no motivation to change their style of play, it appears they even enjoy themselves. If you feel the need to try and take a couple of the other abused players with you, go ahead. But don't let them slow you down when it comes to an immediate evacuation from this group.

That's my two horrified cents.

-Chris

Quote from: ethan_greerMy advice would be to leave the group and never play with them again.  Preserving the friendship can be optional; the important thing is that you remove yourself from the game group as a participant.

I recently ran into a similar situation, and decided to leave the group of several years.  As a result, I haven't actually gamed in several months.  But you know what?  I haven't missed it.  No play at all is better than disfunctional play.

This seems to be the overwhelming consensus. It's aggravating, though. I honestly felt that by even getting three people to show up to a weekly HeroQuest game that we were getting somewhere. It wasn't until the knives came out that I understood how a number of the players *really* felt. My back still hurts.

I know that this is most likely what Ron would say as well.

Xiombarg makes a good point when he states that this type of play is most likely not functional for me, while functional for the rest of the group. To listen to them (most of the time) you wouldn't get that kind of impression, however. Most of their retelling of game stories centers around how GM #1 screwed his player over and is "such a bastard" etc. etc. Hence my confusion. I suppose, in a way, there style of play functions well for them. It just seems like this wierd alpha-male stuff to me now, though.

Thanks for the two-cents everyone. I appreciate your take on it, ethan, that you have been through a similar situation and haven't missed gaming at all. Playing RPGs is such a big hobby for me. It seems like I'll just have this big chunk of boredom left after it's gone. Perhaps that's not true. At least your example shows that it is not.

Hi there,

Actually, what I "would say" has to wait until I understand a little better. As it stands, I'm kind of confused.

Three players in the HeroQuest game, right? And it was some other guy who spoke to you about that game? Or he complained and they joined in? Or?

Maybe I'm just not reading well, but I don't see the statement or description of how the regular HQ players are bitching about the game. Oh wait!! I get it ... this started during a D&D game, and then one of the HQ players joined in ...

Ah ha. I submit that your regular HQ players are not necessarily unhappy with that game. I submit that the abusive/humorous (Hard Core) context of the D&D game makes its own rules about what can be said, up to and including coming up with whatever will hurt the most regardless of its actual validity to the speaker.

I suggest making damn sure that the actual three regular HQ players do not want to continue to play before assuming that is the case. Unless you are careful, it is quite likely that your D&D DM will achieve his possible real goal: scuttling a perfectly viable game that he perceives as a direct threat to his authority, his vested interest in D&D over the past decades, and his social circle and position in it.

If the three HQ players really don't want to continue to play, well and good; then stop playing. But make sure first.

Best,
Ron

If you're 3rd level and it's 3e, you're Vampire Spawn, not a Vampire, which isn't that hot because you can't advance it, unlike the template. A non-viable character choice. If it's 1e, who knows, that's a DM house rule if other people are still playing characters after the vamp takes them.

That DM singled you out for gaming and emotional torture on purpose and I think if you never saw him again it would be too soon. I would second Ron's suggestion to double check with the three players in both games, though. It may be that they were just showing moral weakness by joining in the 'pick on Scripty' fest, or it may even be that these guys as a whole are the kind of sociopaths who were on my intramural football team in college, who enjoy picking each other apart with words simply to hurt the emotionally vulnerable. That's manly in some circles, and standard operating mode in some games. Doesn't matter now: you clearly don't like that kind of game and I don't blame you, neither do I.

But if you think you can forgive those other guys or your behavior with them in other contexts suggests that they can enjoy other kinds of gaming, and you think that the play in your HeroQuest game has been good enough to keep going, then yeah, I second Ron's opinion, see if they really don't like the game or not before ending it.

Quote from: ScriptyIt wasn't until the knives came out that I understood how a number of the players *really* felt. My back still hurts.

Just a quick thought.  I gather from your original post that these "yeah, Heroquest really sucks" comments were made in the context of the dysfunctional game?  It may be possible that some of your Heroquest players actually *have* been enjoying themselves, but feel compelled to join the "dump on Scripty" party in order to maintain their status in the disfunctional group.

You might try keeping on with the games that you are running, while withdrawing from the disfunctional ones.  Those players that really are looking for something better may keep showing up, even if they won't be able to admit it to you or themselves for awhile...

If nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

I'm dubious about wanting to game with people who might like your game but are compelled to trash it in order to preserve status elsewhere. Haven't they ever seen The Breakfast Club? Maybe they're cool guys most of the time, but man, there's so many good players out there looking for other good players, and you won't always have to be checking your back for knives.

Quote from: Bob McNameeIf nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

Yeah, what Bob said. And, I don't think we've actually *played* Hero Quest yet, although Mike got far enough along with one that we'd made characters.

We played it once.  Short set of scenes, only the first inklings of a story.

Years and years ago, I played a few times with a similar group.  The group consisted of four "core" players and a few others who came and went.  The "core" players seemed to treat the game as an excuse to have their characters plot against and ultimately backstab each other -- never mind what the game in question was.

I played with them a couple of times as a player, and, not being privy to everything that was going on, and with them playing established characters, thought that it was something with the characters they were playing.  Later on, though, they asked me to run a game for them, and I did, with them making up new characters -- and it dissolved into the same backstabbing session the games I'd played with them had.  Further, from the GM's vantage point, I got to see all the notes they were passing back and forth and find out what was going on in the private GM-player discussions... so I got to see the instigation of all of it, and how the players in question were looking for any pretext, no matter how flimsy, to have their characters plot against each other.

Still later, I decided to try once more with that group, in hopes that playing something other than D&D might change things.  (They were great guys *outside* of the game, and I loved the pre- and post-game socializing with them.)  I ran Marvel Superheroes, thinking that the ingrained spirit of how superheroes cooperate (well, once you get past the standard "we meet and fight each other" bit) might help.

Nope.  They met, fought, became a group... and then fell right back into the same pattern of passing notes to the GM asking "can I see if X is up to anything?", asking for private conferences, and plotting against each other.  That was enough of that for me, and I gave up on gaming with that group.  I did invite some of them individually to game with a different group I played with, and separated from each other, they played quite reasonably... but as a group together, they couldn't get away from backstabbing each other.

QuoteRon Edwards
Hi there,

Actually, what I "would say" has to wait until I understand a little better.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. You've just always been pretty hardline on the "if it's not fun, don't do it."

Quote
Three players in the HeroQuest game, right? And it was some other guy who spoke to you about that game? Or he complained and they joined in? Or?

It was written in a flush of frustration. The D&D game was the night before my HQ game. The DM was one of the HQ players. His buddy, the guy who has been "lurking" at my games and waiting for a chance to run D&D instead of me running HQ, started off the round of complaints. He doesn't have much experience with HeroQuest outside of hearsay and making a character in the game. The DM (one of the HQ players) joined in, with the other HQ player at the game sort of going along (but in a less belligerent manner). The following night, the HQ game was cancelled because the quiet player unexpectedly had to work and the third player called out. Thus the DM from the night before (and his pal, the lurker) showed up. They blamed the lack of turnout on HQ and pretty much turned up the heat on how bad the game sucked for the second night in a row.

Quote
Ah ha. I submit that your regular HQ players are not necessarily unhappy with that game. I submit that the abusive/humorous (Hard Core) context of the D&D game makes its own rules about what can be said, up to and including coming up with whatever will hurt the most regardless of its actual validity to the speaker.

One of them is, although I wouldn't have known it outside of his two diatribes. The other is ambivalent. I think she actually enjoys the game itself. But she's a social player and I'm unsure whether the social interaction is up to par or if the bonds of social obligation are strong enough to keep her attending. Generally, she starts calling out and then stops showing. That's her M.O. in the past. The saddest part is that the third player (the quiet guy the night before who had to work on game night) really does like HeroQuest. He asked me to get him the Hero's Book for Christmas. My FLGS owner still insists that the book doesn't exist so I got him the corebook instead. He's my best friend in the whole group. I guess the two of us getting knocked around so much in the other group brought about a bonding of sorts. We're also the only two military vets.

Quote
I suggest making damn sure that the actual three regular HQ players do not want to continue to play before assuming that is the case. Unless you are careful, it is quite likely that your D&D DM will achieve his possible real goal: scuttling a perfectly viable game that he perceives as a direct threat to his authority, his vested interest in D&D over the past decades, and his social circle and position in it.

I think he just wants his buddy to run instead of me on the HQ night. But I'm not really interested in playing in *another* D&D game which will devolve into the same ritual of backstabbing and infighting. I know one player is really getting adjusted to the game. The other two I'm not so sure on. Thanks for the advice. I will definitely double-check before I completely fly off the handle.

Quote
Calithena

If you're 3rd level and it's 3e, you're Vampire Spawn, not a Vampire, which isn't that hot because you can't advance it, unlike the template. A non-viable character choice. If it's 1e, who knows, that's a DM house rule if other people are still playing characters after the vamp takes them.

It was second edition. These guys have gotten on a *purity* kick with old school D&D lately. Even Vampire Spawn would have been a preferable fate. It didn't much matter. I was way outclassed with even the other PCs normal abilities. It was my 3rd level Paladin against his 3rd level Samurai/Vampire with Honor Sword daikatana and katana. I was dead. With his Vamp Strength he had, I think, a +8 on damage. I only had 19hp. I was dead.

Quote
That DM singled you out for gaming and emotional torture on purpose and I think if you never saw him again it would be too soon.

I'm not so sure about the intent. That's how these guys play. You know when a couple of guys meet and they kind of pick on each other until they get comfortable and then can just be normal around each other. These guys never got past that. So every game is an exercise at picking on each other. I've only seen them "gang up" on one other guy. He doesn't play anymore. I was just surprised to find that I had assumed the role in his place.

Quote
rafial
Just a quick thought. I gather from your original post that these "yeah, Heroquest really sucks" comments were made in the context of the dysfunctional game? It may be possible that some of your Heroquest players actually *have* been enjoying themselves, but feel compelled to join the "dump on Scripty" party in order to maintain their status in the disfunctional group.

Thanks. I think the quiet guy really does like the game. But one player obviously doesn't and the other is starting to lose interest. The kicker is that it's hard to really push the whole lost interest thing because these players are bringing less and less to the table. I let them choose setting and genre and then ask them what they want to play (character-wise). Their responses, unilaterally, are "I don't know..." This next game I had created characters in advance. To give them an idea of what they "could" do with HeroQuest. It doesn't look like it's gettting out of the starting gate.

Quote
Bob McNamee

If nothing else works for you... the indie netgamers are always interested in new players and GMs... and cool games.

indie netgamers?? I'm interested. What is it?

Quote
Matt Wilson
I'm dubious about wanting to game with people who might like your game but are compelled to trash it in order to preserve status
elsewhere. Haven't they ever seen The Breakfast Club? Maybe they're cool guys most of the time, but man, there's so many good players out there looking for other good players, and you won't always have to be checking your back for knives.
_________________
-Matt

Again, thanks. If given a choice, I would rather play than run. I just don't care for the old school "I am God" DM. I've tried running games around here to show people that it "could" be different. Haven't had much luck.

Thanks, everyone, for the support and the really great advice. I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me.

Scott

heya scripty,

 first off, where are you located?  maybe there's some kind of organiztion that you can get in touch with to locate other gamers.  also, Issaries, Inc. has a fantastic support system for HQ and you should be able to find other gamers through their website, if you haven't tried that route yet, that is.  

 and on the similar stories note, my first gaming group was in the same vein as yours.  there were five regular players: myself, my younger brother Danny, my best friend Justin, my neighbor Harry and this guy we all knew named Rob.  Rob was older than most of us by a couple of years easily and was weened on old-school, pickpocket your friends and always kill the halfling in the first session ay-dee-en-dee.  we played adnd2nd and had a blast for a while doing your basic dungeon crawling.  then, my neighbor Harry and the DM Rob started "getting together" on gaming stuff, and normally i was the target of it all.  they would tag team during games, Rob using harry and his PC as a mole in the game to railroad our group into certain quests or doing certain things.  

   it culminated in a session where-in, during a break of a minute or two wherein i had to go and put something away, another PC at one of the games we were playing in went stepping through a fiery cave using magic to protect himself.  Overhearing "I'm walking in," i say "oh, were all following, right?  well, i'll take up the lead, 'cause i'm a paladin and i don't want anyone else getting hurt."

   Rather than explaining the situation to me, Rob simply let me walk of into the fire.  After laughing in devlish glee and grabbing dice from other players' piles of dice because he "didn't have enough dice on his own for the damage roll", he then told me that my character walked into a flaming hallway in a volcano and burnt to a crisp, rolling approximately one hundred dice in the doing.  

 yet i stuck it through, playing in games of Rifts and Heros Unlimited with them.  These games were alternately run by Harry and Rob.  the experiences were so bad that both my brother and my friend Justin stopped role-playing entirely after the group desolved and i stopped hanging out with both Harry and Rob.

 To solve my frustration i simply stopped going to their games, got some of my friends who had never role-played before and sat down with a copy of the Robotech RPG from paladium one afternoon.  Twelve years later I have ran Nobilis, i own a copy of Riddle of Steel and I've never been happier as a player.

 maybe it's time to start fresh for you too.  see if any of your regular HQ players wants to come along with you and start a new group. if not, you can always try going to your non-gamer friends and seeing if they're interrested, use the avenues listed above, or go for indie netgaming, which is an on-line Yahoo groups "game room" where players can get together and run games of their choosing and find like-minded players.  That's going to be where i turn soon, seeing as how i've recently moved to hawaii and they don't make gamers out here.  hey, if you go indie-netgaming i'd gladly join your group.  i've got a copy of HQ and no one to play with.

 well, i'm sorry you had to go through so much crap.  hopefully you'll be able to cut the dross and get down to having fun around the dinner table again.

laters