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{crossposted with rpg.net}
I've been gone for a while (not that you noticed :-P ), and here's what iv'e been up to.
I've been running a Feng Shui game for the past couple of months using the scenario provided in the rulebook as a jumping off point.

Rather than getting into a long "OOOh! MY game is teh roxxor and i'm going to tell/bore you with the details" i'm just going to jabber about what i thought of the game. My group consists of my old TRoS group and a guy who is pretty much a noob when it comes to RPGs. We had a Ninja, a Killer and the new guy played an Everyman Hero (because i compared it to Jack Burton from Big Trouble in Little China).

What i like:
1. Character creation: this went very quickly. After some hemming and hawing from the ninja over guns (he thought Glocks were a stupid choice compared to some other, much better gun...i forget the details) we got going pretty quick. Each is highly competent right out of the starting gate and nicely differentiated from the others. I like this.

2. System (including combat): Nice and fast. Handles quite a bit without any trouble at all. I  like the rules light approach because it completely eliminates most of the tendency and desire to flip pages looking for rules to handle a situation.

What bugs me:

1. For some reason, Guns skill is used for hand to hand combat. I don't know the reasoning behind it. The Killer's player thought it was exceedingly odd but we went with it anyway.

2. Being cool with guns is a lot harder than being cool with swords or martial arts. While the ninja was flipping out and killing everyone and the everyman hero was throwing everything from chopsticks to a can of hairspray into a fire so it fired off like a rocket and exploded against the head of a big tough bad guy, the killer was pretty much relegated to "I use Both Guns Blazing and shoot him in the face". He's an imaginative guy, but adding "I spin around and shoot him in the face" is nowhere near as cool as the stuff the other guys were doing.

3. There is no real tangible reward for stunts. Sure, it's cooler when the ninja says "I leap over the head of one animated suit of armor while slashing it in the head, pheonix back flip off the wall and slash downward on a second suit and as i land, i thrust behind me and impale a third", but that's really no different, benefit wise, (other than everyone saying "Wow! Cool!") than saying "I attack three guys this round". Other stunts are penalized or have high values, which tends to keep players from trying cool stuff.

I had to start rewarding experience to my players to get them to describe cool things, which kind of screws over the killer, since, like i said, it's kind of hard to come up with cool stunts.

4. This is a personal quibble, but the setting kind of bugs me. Things get really wonky really quick, and we've only travelled to ancient China.

5. There are no car chase rules in the MRB, and for a game that is about action movies, this seemed like an oversight...so i had to make some up by watching Ronin and thinking about how the rules would apply.

Overall, the game is fun, but it does have some drawbacks, mostly related to performing stunts.

I'm going to wrap up this game pretty quick i think, run a oneshot of Dread, and then move into Exalted.

Quote from: arxhon2. Being cool with guns is a lot harder than being cool with swords or martial arts. While the ninja was flipping out and killing everyone and the everyman hero was throwing everything from chopsticks to a can of hairspray into a fire so it fired off like a rocket and exploded against the head of a big tough bad guy, the killer was pretty much relegated to "I use Both Guns Blazing and shoot him in the face". He's an imaginative guy, but adding "I spin around and shoot him in the face" is nowhere near as cool as the stuff the other guys were doing.

3. There is no real tangible reward for stunts. Sure, it's cooler when the ninja says "I leap over the head of one animated suit of armor while slashing it in the head, pheonix back flip off the wall and slash downward on a second suit and as i land, i thrust behind me and impale a third", but that's really no different, benefit wise, (other than everyone saying "Wow! Cool!") than saying "I attack three guys this round". Other stunts are penalized or have high values, which tends to keep players from trying cool stuff.

I had to start rewarding experience to my players to get them to describe cool things, which kind of screws over the killer, since, like i said, it's kind of hard to come up with cool stunts.
...
Overall, the game is fun, but it does have some drawbacks, mostly related to performing stunts.

Can I suggest running Wushu next? Have a look at:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9359

Quote from: arxhon1. For some reason, Guns skill is used for hand to hand combat. I don't know the reasoning behind it. The Killer's player thought it was exceedingly odd but we went with it anyway.

Guns isn't just the ability to shoot, it's fighting with guns as a weapon.

Quote2. Being cool with guns is a lot harder than being cool with swords or martial arts.

I think this is just a matter of imagination. Why can't the guy with the guns flip over folks while shooting them? See, again, guns isn't just about shooting straight, it's a martial art on it's own. Have you seen the movie Killer? You have to be constantly leaping through fields of fire, shooting while upside down. Think the scene in the Matrix where he's shooting while doing a cartwheel.

Quote3. There is no real tangible reward for stunts. Sure, it's cooler when the ninja says "I leap over the head of one animated suit of armor while slashing it in the head, pheonix back flip off the wall and slash downward on a second suit and as i land, i thrust behind me and impale a third", but that's really no different, benefit wise, (other than everyone saying "Wow! Cool!") than saying "I attack three guys this round". Other stunts are penalized or have high values, which tends to keep players from trying cool stuff.

You missed the "Dull" rule. That is, the GM is authorized to penalize the player if he doesn't make a good narration. If you do this right, it seems like a reward.

Quote5. There are no car chase rules in the MRB, and for a game that is about action movies, this seemed like an oversight...so i had to make some up by watching Ronin and thinking about how the rules would apply.

Overall, the game is fun, but it does have some drawbacks, mostly related to performing stunts.

Just roll the dice and describe the combat outcome in terms of the moving scenery. I can't imagine why you'd need any special rules for this.

Feng Shui tries to go to lengths to counter some of the problems that you see occuring, so I'm wondering if there wasn't some larger disconnect. Are your players fans of Wuxia movies?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesGuns isn't just the ability to shoot, it's fighting with guns as a weapon.

Well, for example, we had a tough time trying to envision a dude parrying a baseball bat with a pistol, things like that.

Quote from: Mike Holmes
[some snippage] Why can't the guy with the guns flip over folks while shooting them?... Have you seen the movie Killer? ... Think the scene in the Matrix where he's shooting while doing a cartwheel.

Actually, sadly, no i haven't seen Killer. I remember the Matrix scene you're talking about. I'll keep that in mind. I see no reason why buddy can't flip over folks. IIRC, he did a little of this in the first session but then stopped. I'm not sure why, but i think it's because he didn't see any point to it.

Quote from: Mike HolmesYou missed the "Dull" rule. That is, the GM is authorized to penalize the player if he doesn't make a good narration. If you do this right, it seems like a reward.

I'm unable to find any reference to a "Dull" rule in the MRB. Is this a suggestion from another book, or an idea of your own? At any rate, this is a great idea, and i'm borrowing it.

Quote from: Mike HolmesJust roll the dice and describe the combat outcome in terms of the moving scenery. I can't imagine why you'd need any special rules for this.

This is effectively what i did, actually. I had the guys do Drive checks when things got hairy on the road, or when they wanted to do something like drive up a freeway off ramp, run a red light and drive down the opposite on-ramp at 140 mph.

Quote from: Mike Holmes
Feng Shui tries to go to lengths to counter some of the problems that you see occuring, so I'm wondering if there wasn't some larger disconnect. Are your players fans of Wuxia movies?

I've only seen a couple of actual Hong Kong wuxia movies; most of my exposure is subtitled Jackie Chan movies (before he got big in North America), Chow Yun Fat, Bruce Lee and Jet Li's North American flicks. We all like martial arts flicks, and one of them thinks Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the "bomb".

I don't know what you mean by "disconnect", could you elaborate?

I'm not knocking Feng Shui. I had a lot of fun with it, i think the ruleset is actually pretty good, and i know the guys have had some fun as well. Unfortunately, my players are a little more, ummm..."reward oriented" (there's probably a Forge term for it) than probably the people the game is directed at.

A good example of what my players (and i, as well, honestly) like would be the Spiritual Attributes from The Riddle of Steel. They do something relevant to their character and get  immediate gratification in terms of the character.

Quote from: Andrew MartinCan I suggest running Wushu next?

Could you provide some linkage? I've heard a little bit about Wushu, but i'm afraid i know very little. What i've read in the thread you provided sounds intersting, and i'd like to know more.[/quote]

Wushu link: www.bayn.org

Cool, thanks, Shreyas Sampat. :-)

I forgot to add to my original post: I really like the way the skill system is set up: including ability, knowledge and contacts into one broad category is quite brilliant, in my opinion.

Quote from: arxhonWell, for example, we had a tough time trying to envision a dude parrying a baseball bat with a pistol, things like that.

Heh, reminds me of Rich's game Shotgun Musashi. But you just narrate something else. Arm block with the left, shoot with the right. Or just flattening out on the ground under the swing, and shooting them in the groin. Or parrying with a nearby lead pipe (just because the Everyman Hero gets a bonus doesn't mean that others can't do it, too).

Kinda funny, actually, the usual complaint is that people can't see how HTH abilities can compete with the guns. :-)

Quote from: Mike HolmesActually, sadly, no i haven't seen Killer. I remember the Matrix scene you're talking about. I'll keep that in mind. I see no reason why buddy can't flip over folks. IIRC, he did a little of this in the first session but then stopped. I'm not sure why, but i think it's because he didn't see any point to it.

Killer should be required viewing. :-)
The ballet of bullets is just too cool, and really informs what the action should look like.

Quote from: Mike HolmesI'm unable to find any reference to a "Dull" rule in the MRB. Is this a suggestion from another book, or an idea of your own? At any rate, this is a great idea, and i'm borrowing it.

No, this is in the rules. I have first edition, so maybe somehow it didn't make it into the second if that's what you have. But it's crucial, so I can't imagine why it wouldn't have. It also appeared in Over the Edge. It's called Law's Rule or something like that. The text goes something like "If the player ever says something dull like 'I hit it', immediately penalize them heavily." Something like that. It's key.

Quote from: Mike HolmesThis is effectively what i did, actually. I had the guys do Drive checks when things got hairy on the road, or when they wanted to do something like drive up a freeway off ramp, run a red light and drive down the opposite on-ramp at 140 mph.

Have them use the Drive checks as combat rolls the next time, if applicable. :-)

Quote from: Mike HolmesI've only seen a couple of actual Hong Kong wuxia movies; most of my exposure is subtitled Jackie Chan movies (before he got big in North America), Chow Yun Fat, Bruce Lee and Jet Li's North American flicks. We all like martial arts flicks, and one of them thinks Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the "bomb".

CTHD is probably the best out of those. What you want is to find films like that which occur in modern day. The book (again at least my edition) had a great listing of films. I'd definitely check it out.

QuoteI don't know what you mean by "disconnect", could you elaborate?

There's a definite aesthetic to the game that you didn't seem to get hooked into. Seen Big Trouble in Little China? That one most have seen.

QuoteI'm not knocking Feng Shui. I had a lot of fun with it, i think the ruleset is actually pretty good, and i know the guys have had some fun as well. Unfortunately, my players are a little more, ummm..."reward oriented" (there's probably a Forge term for it) than probably the people the game is directed at.

Give them Feng Shui (the reward for controling special sites) in spades then. Make them crave it. :-)

QuoteA good example of what my players (and i, as well, honestly) like would be the Spiritual Attributes from The Riddle of Steel. They do something relevant to their character and get  immediate gratification in terms of the character.

Probably the most often cited problem with the game. And I can't argue. If you want to put something simple in, then have the character recieve a +1 whenever he's doing something that regards addressing his "melodramatic hook". Or something like that.

Mike

Hello Mike,

QuoteThere's a definite aesthetic to the game that you didn't seem to get hooked into. Seen Big Trouble in Little China?

Heh...I own Big Trouble in Little China. Kind of 80's cheesy, but still a fine film, in my opinion. It was one of the films i compared Feng Shui to when i sold the game to my players, the other being Crouching Tiger.

QuoteKiller should be required viewing. :-)

The filmography in the back of the book is good; it's probably the same in both editions. I'll track down Killer for sure and make it required viewing.

I tried comparing gun fu to some movie i saw a few years back that i can't remember the name of, but it had some dude and some other dude  in a close range gun fight at the end, spinning and dodging in a hallway in a skyscraper within arms reach of each other, and then both ran out of ammo just as they each pulled the trigger while pointing their guns at the other guy's face.

QuoteNo, this is in the rules. I have first edition, so maybe somehow it didn't make it into the second if that's what you have.

I've got the second edition of the ruleset, so it may have been dropped or overlooked. It certainly isn't in the GM chapter or the Firefight (or whatever) chapter. I'll run through the book again just to see if i can find it (cause this is bugging me now) and I'll certainly implement it this Wednesday regardless.

arxhon,

I believe what Mike is talking about is covered in Adjucating Stunts in Chapter 10. Basically, if the player gets repetative with their stunting, you can actually increase the AV modifier to relfect that the opposition is getting wise to them doing the same stunts over and over again.

Urbwar could be right, maybe I'm remembering the OTE version or something. But I'm going to look it up to be sure.

QuoteI tried comparing gun fu to some movie i saw a few years back that i can't remember the name of, but it had some dude and some other dude in a close range gun fight at the end, spinning and dodging in a hallway in a skyscraper within arms reach of each other, and then both ran out of ammo just as they each pulled the trigger while pointing their guns at the other guy's face.

Heh, I can't remember if that's in "The Killer", but it could be. There's more than one "mexican standoff". Sounds just right, in any case, for inspirational material.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesHeh, I can't remember if that's in "The Killer", but it could be. There's more than one "mexican standoff". Sounds just right, in any case, for inspirational material.

Mike

That actually sounds like the mexican standoff Chow Yun Fat and Tony Leung have in "Hardboiled", doesn't it?

Quote from: arxhonWell, for example, we had a tough time trying to envision a dude parrying a baseball bat with a pistol, things like that.

Shoot the baseball bat?

Quote from: urbwar

Quote from: Mike HolmesHeh, I can't remember if that's in "The Killer", but it could be. There's more than one "mexican standoff". Sounds just right, in any case, for inspirational material.

Mike

That actually sounds like the mexican standoff Chow Yun Fat and Tony Leung have in "Hardboiled", doesn't it?

Well, i know it wasn't Hardboiled. I saw that recently. The movie came out in the 90's sometime, and i know none of the actors were Asian. It was a Hollywood movie.

It isn't really important, nor is it germane to the discussion.

We had another session last night, and things were much better. I started saying things like 'Make it cool' when people did stuff,and that reminded the guys, that 'i shoot at him' is pretty dull, i think.

At any rate, the game was much better this time around.

fwiw, that was "Face OfF", with Nicholas Cage and John Travolta, directed by John Woo IIRC

Quote from: arxhon

We had another session last night, and things were much better. I started saying things like 'Make it cool' when people did stuff,and that reminded the guys, that 'i shoot at him' is pretty dull, i think.

At any rate, the game was much better this time around.

That's good to hear. Did you feel that by reminding them every so often helped motivate them to try and make better descriptions?